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My worry with NGIII
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CyberEvil
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:10 pm    Post subject: My worry with NGIII Reply with quote

Alright guys, some of the things I've heard about are starting to be confirmed as details leak out regarding NGIII, so now I feel I need to vent a little.

Most of you know me as an outspoken proponent of the Ninja Gaiden franchise. I've beaten every single entry of this series on all available difficulties, beaten every mission in NGB and NGII, posted speed runs, some strategy guides and FAQs, and even ran a contest or two thanks to our friends at then-Tecmo NA. I've always had an "in" or two present in Team Ninja/Tecmo until recently and as such have tried to bring you guys as much info as I could without getting anyone in trouble. Well, except the one time I managed to piss off Team Ninja by posting a couple Co-op vids from NGS2, but in my defense I hadn't signed an NDA and wasn't aware I was supposed to hold off. So you could say I'm one of the most hardcore players, harshest critics, and enthusiastic fans of the series on this side of the pond. Everyone here is a huge fan but I don't feel any qualms about throwing my hat in for a few of those titles.

This is why I'm incredibly distressed about the direction I see Ninja Gaiden III taking. It's been some time since I've gotten any real information on the title, but everything that I've heard has thus far been confirmed, right down to a major change to the core gameplay mechanics for combat. There's also some things about structure for the story and world traversal, but I'll leave those alone right now. It's one thing to state that the gameplay of a title feels dated and feel the need to update it; it's another entirely to re-work the title so much that it feels entirely different. Since I don't have anything concrete that I can share at this point regarding the current state of play, coupling what I do know with Hayashi-san's comments on the systems, I'll simply drop a similar situation to describe how I feel: the degree of changes being proposed remind me most of taking Street Fighter into 3D and changing the systems. I'm referring to the Street Fighter EX series and most specifically Street Fighter EX 3 on PS2. Another example would be Samurai Shodown leading into Samurai Shodown Sen. The may be fighters, but the biggest change wasn't the art style, it was the core method of engaging in combat.

Now I understand the logistics of talking up game changes and I've been fortunate to have a decent amount of contact with Team Ninja dating back to 2005 when I was able to sit down and talk directly to Itagaki-san at a pre-E3 dinner. I do understand where they're coming from. I do know that there is a good portion of the gaming public that won't give Ninja Gaiden a chance due to the stigma attached by many to difficulty. But you can address the camera and difficulty complaints, as well as evolve the formula enough to be a true sequel, without completely changing the systems and effectively tossing all of your hardcore faithful into the water with everyone else. I want to learn new systems to compliment my existing skill set. I want to grow WITH Hayabusa. I do not want to feel like Hayabusa and I both got tossed into straight-jackets after being hamstrung, because that's what these changes are amounting to. I don't want to think about cutting someone. I want to think about the most effective way to dispatch the myriad enemies before me while keeping myself alive. Hayabusa is a Super Ninja, not a chef preparing steaks for a meat market.

I'm alright with focusing more on Hayabusa himself. I don't need the fanservice from the DoA franchise. I'm even alright with humanizing Hayabusa a bit and dealing with his feelings about things (that's coming, btw). That stuff is all fine and good. But I do not support drastic changes to core gameplay. I'll naturally reserve final judgment until I can get my hands on the game, but I am absolutely not looking forward to seeing the first gameplay, least of all being played by someone with little-to-no experience with the series (or at the least, amateurs). I simply cannot get behind a drastically different Ninja Gaiden. This is supposed to be a sequel guys, not a spin-off or a new franchise. Don't let us down.
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mohsin117
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

why do they feel a need to completely re do the combat system? If there’s one thing NG got right got prefect back in 2004 it was the combat system, and I think NG2 and NGS2 did a grate job of adding to that, we seen more balanced weapons and wider rang of them, we seen the Shuriken get better implemented in to the combat, and dismemberment, UTs, in terms of combat it was more then perfecta at NG2

I have this really bad feeling that Hayashi is going to go down the one weapon root with NG3, like in other hack and slash game where the character only has one weapon or one decent weapon (GOW,DMC) and if he dose that NG is dead to me

I do like the idea if a more human Ryu but some of the things that have been said just doesn’t sound like Ryu, or the Ryu we know,

Im starting to think that NG3 will probably be a good game its just not going to be Ninja Gaiden

But yeah we do have to hole out for some game play or even playing it our self before completely passing final judgment
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Primeval_Demon
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to take the wait and see approach with this but based on the way you describe it it sounds like a Primeval series 3 wave.

It goes away from that magic that sucked you in and throws stuff that made it appealing right out of the window. Instead you get something which feels completely different. It uses the same characters but the different approach to it doesn't make it as appealing to the hardcore fans that loved it in the first place.

It is good in its own right and has some interesting twists in there but as an NG game it just doesn't fly.
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Keylay
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the problem is that they don't know how to improve Ninja Gaiden's combat anymore. Hayashi said it was old now but there are still ways they can improve it. They need to go back to Ninja Gaiden Black / Sigma's combat and work up from there. I think they made a few mistakes with Ninja Gaiden II (enemies didn't have many defensive options, lower variety in enemies, so many projectile attacks and no reloading animations, etc)

I don't know what Hayashi's planning for Ninja Gaiden III but it's starting to feel like a reboot. Hopefully, it won't be as big of a reboot as DMC but I doubt that since it's the same team that's making it.

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/114/1146735p1.html

Quote:
Yosuke: Ninja Gaiden I was all about cutting people and in Ninja Gaiden II it was about dismembering enemies. In Ninja Gaiden III, you're going to experience something new regarding the feeling of cutting people. This is going to be new because you'll actually feel how it is to cut through someone; you'll feel the bones breaking. We're going to focus on the feeling of cutting someone more than dismembering them.


So it seems like Ninja Gaiden III won't have any dismembering (maybe a little like head chopping) but will be more like Ninja Gaiden I but with more feeling when you cut a person. The only thing I can think of is that you'll plunge your sword into an enemy and then pull it out in different directions.

I believe Hayashi likes Ninja Gaiden a lot. I've seen his name mostly on Ninja Gaiden games (Dragon Sword, Sigma, Sigma II) so it NGII might turn out well.

Not that it matters so much but I wonder what he was planning to do with a Kasumi. He made it seem like she was going to be in the next game but now he's focusing on just Ryu. Doesn't matter though. I didn't care for Sonia much so I hope they have a better girl. And Momiji should be the one to give Ryu the Eye of the Dragon. She is the shrine maiden after all. I'm kind of excited to see Ninja Gaiden III at E3. Mainly because it's been so long since we've played a new Team Ninja game. DOA Dimensions is kind of a compilation, Metroid Other M was a Nintendo game, and Ninja Gaiden Sigma II was an upgrade from Ninja Gaiden II. It's been 2 1/2 years since Ninja Gaiden II and I wasn't so happy with that.
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vspectra
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree, I'm not liking Hayashi's comment about the "feel of cutting" someone but that it will require button presses. This gives me the impression that you have to keep pushing the X button in order to slice through someone, thus getting in the way of the flow of combat and combos. I see this as more of a gimmick that will wear thin soon after one playthrough.

I would have to disagree with him on NG1 and 2 feeling outdated as well. I look at all of the action games recently and they still haven't done anything incredibly different from NG. God of War 3, Enslaved, and Castlevania LOS both have a shallow combat system and seems to be more focused on presentation than the actual fighting. The only hardcore action game is Bayonetta and that's just DMC on steroids; it plays nothing like NG.

NG just simply needs to improve on its existing game mechanics and presentation in order to be ahead of the competition, not reinvent the whole game. I think NG2 lacked the cinematic presentation that NG1 had, so I don't mind that they're focusing a little more on story and character.

In terms of game progression, I think bringing back the feeling of freedom to explore from NG1 due to the environmental designs would be a nice addition that puts it ahead of other action games. It gives it a sense of adventure that you just don't find in extremely linear action titles and provides a nice change of pace where you don't get bored of constantly fighting enemies (especially the same enemies over and over), which I found to be a flaw in NG2.

It'll be interesting to see where the new Team Ninja takes the series, but many fans' fears for the worst seems to be coming true, which is instead of building on the incredibly well developed combat engine, they're trying to remake the whole thing from scratch. NG's combat doesn't need to be remade. It's arguably the most comprehensive and in-depth combat mechanics of any action game right now, so I don't see why Hayashi would call it outdated. No other game requires you to master defense and offense at a quick pace and to always be on your guard due to the enemy A.I. The system just needs to be further tweaked and balanced.
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CyberEvil
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm debating heading to E3 this year to catch a glimpse but the biggest problem is it likely won't be playable on the show floor. I have a history with Tecmo NA, but I don't think that will do me any favors with TK folks. I simply don't know most of them. I have no real reason to go otherwise. I think I will drop them a line directly though and point them here. If they are worrying the biggest fans of the franchise, who's going to drum up word of mouth? A well-done trailer just doesn't have the impact it did four or five years ago. Gamers are increasingly jaded.

I'll see what I can do.
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Primeval_Demon
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Didn't Eurogamer say Hayashi confirmed it was playable? I'm sure I read that.

Yes they did. See:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-01-26-team-ninja-dissects-dead-or-alive-and-ninja-gaiden-3-interview?page=2

Its the very last question.

"Actually we cannot answer at this point. We will in the really near future. Also, especially for the series fan, we will make sure we bring excitement. At E3 this year we are going to provide a playable demo."
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CyberEvil
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most recently he did an interview and stated that it would be for press, last I heard. It's four in the morning so I could be incorrect, but that was my understanding. We'll see. Either way, my worries about this game stand until I play the game. Not sure if I'll bother with the trip since I'm moving to the LA area around July anyway. That would only cost money that could be put to better use elsewhere.
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Female Tengu
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I agree, I'm not liking Hayashi's comment about the "feel of cutting" someone but that it will require button presses. This gives me the impression that you have to keep pushing the X button in order to slice through someone, thus getting in the way of the flow of combat and combos. I see this as more of a gimmick that will wear thin soon after one playthrough.


To be honest. That whole article about this bone breaking-super-duper-feature sounds just dumb. I dont have any respect for that because to me it is an utterly useless "improvement". And it's probably just a rumble feature which means if you cut an arm, the controller will vibrate a bit and cutting trough bodies makes the pad flying to the other side of your room Razz

I wish TN would speak about other more important things.....like the core gameplay.


Quote:
If there’s one thing NG got right got prefect back in 2004 it was the combat system, and I think NG2 and NGS2 did a grate job of adding to that, we seen more balanced weapons and wider rang of them, we seen the Shuriken get better implemented in to the combat, and dismemberment, UTs, in terms of combat it was more then perfecta at NG2



I agree with that. But IMO Hayashi and Tn follows the same concept like other devs are doing it right now:

"Innovations/changes where you actually dont need them, just to squeeze as much money as you can".


Bungie did it with Halo Reach, and to me Halo Reach has the worst Halo multiplayer ever, just because Bungie brought totally unneeded stuff to the core gameplay to attract the majority of gamers out there: casuals. And the result was flaming and complaining in Bungies forums.
I guess Team Ninja is now on the same trip, lol. "Making the game a bit easier" already is the first step.

Recently I found an interesting statement from Treyarchs (COD Black Ops) Community Manager:

Quote:
When asked what the biggest problem facing the games industry today was, he said “as a community manager who lives in the media or social media world every day, I think the social culture of video games is moving in a more negative direction as technology and social media continues to grow. Rather than growing with it, the trend seems to be devolving.”


“More and more gamers seem to forget what this industry is all about,” he adds, saying “It’s a creative industry – the most creative form of entertainment in existence. Too many developers who try new things are getting burned by “pundits” and angry entitled fans who look to be contrarian, sometimes simply for the sake of being contrarian. The only thing this attitude aims to achieve is stunt that creativity and innovation even further, which is something that no rational gamer looking to be entertained would want to do.”

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mohsin117
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i don’t have a problem with NG going back to only having Ryu playable, I actually think it’s a good call, but when he says there wont be any DOA characters, I really really hope his just saying that there wont be any DOA characters playable, im going to be upset if DOA characters are completely absent from the game, especially after Hayashi went on about there being a surprise for NG fans in the game where he was referring to Kasumi, so he clearly feeals that we wanto to see Ayane, Kasumi and so on

I don’t mind seeing Rachel again she’s grown on me after playing NGS2 and seeing Sonia, I don’t want to see any more of Sonia what a horrible character, and an insult to every body in NG, why dose the CIA seem to know more about the fiends and attack on the Hayabusa village then the Hayabusa? She makes absolutely no sense so much thing wrong with her, and it really angers me to think that a horrible character like Sonia was given preference over Ayane, Kasumi, Momiji, Joe, Genshin, Muramasa you know what every one!

I really do hope we see the DOA characters in the game and in the story, I know if they are missing I will be asking after them, and im sure others will be too, maybe we ill see them in the multiplayer
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Primeval_Demon
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would be upset about it. Yeah Ryu is the star so he has the majority of the game time and gets treated a cut above. It is HIS game.

But having said that the extra playable characters bring something unique to the game that not even new weapons can match because each character also has unique movements, abilities or fighting styles. All they need to do is separate the extra characters in alternate modes like "assignment Ada" from RE4. Alternatively they could have them playable for mission mode or have a difficulty set like Dragon Sword but they should keep them in for those that want them.

There are plenty of ways round it. IMO removing a feature that was put in twice is another step backwards again. I know this Ryu's game and I use him most but the other characters often make nice alternatives for me.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's clear that team ninja wants to sell more, but it also seems they have no idea what to do in order to accomplish that.

Hayashi says that NG needs something new and fresh, but the LAST thing that needs to be changed is the combat system. He wants to implement features that will separate NG from other games, make it stand out, and that is exactly what the combat system did.

The thing about cutting or having to press buttons to get the katana to go through the enemy...really? is that what the "innovation" is? A pseudo QTE gimmick? I am sure Hayashi knows that QTEs are at least 12 years old right? hardly an innovation.

Team ninja needs to sit down, look at the previous games and separate the good from the bad. The combat system was flawless, yet the story was HORRENDOUS. I beat NGS2 about 20 times now and have yet to understand why Sonia was kidnapped. They can even make the game easier and more...approachable, but it doesn't have to completely remade for that to happen.

I could go on and on about this but what's the point? We all agree with what needs to be changed and what needs to remain, but we also know that TN will do whatever they want in the end, so we can only wait for E3.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dont mind new stuff in NG games.

But it is very risky.

One thing I dont want it to change however is the combat, Ryu and how badass Ryu is in his poses, fighting...etc. and music.

I do NOT want DOA in my freaking Ninja Gaiden games, unless that person is Hayate.
I am getting sick of every wallpaper, avatars....etc. is the damn girls while Ryu is taking a beatseat.

When NGS2 was about to come up it was obvious how they were making the girls as priority while Ryu was "meh the ninja dude we all know".

I want Ryu to become like a dark ninja, a dark past, give him a circle beard, make him evolve , gritty ninja master that has been through so much stuff..
And please add some elemental powers to his attacks and not some generic ninpo stuff.
I want ninpo's to be combined with combos.

Also this new combat feature, it sounds like QTE to me, and I swear to god, if they even consider adding QTE I will be super pissed off!
Leave that childish automatic combat to western devs like God of War or something.
In NG it has always been about manual combat, YOU have to fight from start to finish, no matter how badass a QTE scene could turn out.

Look at Bayonetta for example, its all real time but yet the fight setpieces with the bosses are crazy.

I am also happy if they would bring back gore, but not the crazy NG2, tone it to a bit more realistic level, kind of like Dragon Age for example.
I wouldn't mind if in NG3, blood would be on the characters, God of War 3 did, Dragon Age games are going it, really badass IMO.

I am interested in this game considering I am a big fan of NG series since NES, and considering this is Hayashi's real NG game I will have faith.
But what he did with NGS2, I am worried, I do NOT want girls>>>>>Ryu scenario.

If I could take any girl that stays, it would be Ayane considering she is closer to Ryu's fighting pace.
As much as I love Momiji's design and ninpo, she was BORING, but then again, she didnt have a damn katana or short swords or anything, I HATE big weapons.

I dont know, I will have to wait and see really.

Though, I do find the idea of sword going through flesh and bone quite fascinating.

PS. I can tell you guys this, as much as NG3 wouldnt be as I visioned it, I would still buy it, yes I am THAT weak for Ninja Gaiden games. Smile
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mohsin117
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Instead of giving us DOA characters like Ayane, Hayate and Kasumi or even NG characters Momiji, Joe, Rachel and hell even Shinji where going to get.... Sonia, ugh cos you know she really works in NG
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe Tengu did jokingly ask for her lol.
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