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NGS2 and NG2 comparison
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CyberEvil
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He didn't make an error, I'm just loathe to see any thread here end up like GameFAQs. Despite the overall maturity level here being much higher, people have certain tendencies when they're provoked in the right way. In case you haven't noticed, I've responded quite positively to a lot of his posts too. I'm very blunt in person and that translates online. Some people just have thin skin, is all.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Which demo was on mentor with ayane? I dont think i noticed it.
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Wanderfalke
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One question.

If we have some guys here that have a certain know-how about things that effect frame rates, then your welcome to bring light into the dark^^

So, NG2 had quite a framerate issue. I know that AA affects frame rate and that NG2 has AA . NGS2 has no AA but has a native 720p resolution and NG2 has only a 585p resolution.

I guess Iīm right, if Iīm saying that the PS3 has theoretically more power.

On the other hand I donīt know if higher resolution, like NGS2 has, also affects frame rate.

Team Ninja decided to not use AA for NGS2. Every developer tries to make a game as good looking as possible, right?
So Team Ninja could have used AA to make NGS2 look even better, but they obviously didnīt.

My guess is that they prefered better frame rate performence instead of visual brilliance.

Now to my actual question. If the PS3 has more power, then why they didnīt use AA???

IS THE ENGINE (Iīm thinking more of the fast responsive gameplay than the graphics) OF NINJA GAIDEN SUCH A PAIN IN THE ASS FOR THE PROCESSORS (360 and PS3)???????????????????

I mean there are some titles that have 720p or higher an run at 60 fps, arenīt they?
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CyberEvil
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The engine issues were mostly due to AI subroutines and the lighting model. Most framerate dips happened with too many characters on screen at once, so the natural deduction would be that the engine was choking on managing the AI. The more likely culprit is the dynamic shadowing for each unique character, though. The gore effects didn't help, though.
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Wanderfalke
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the reply!

Didnīt knew that lighting/shadowing can affect frame rate that much Shocked

Well, we have to wait and see if Sigma 2 has the same problem with many enemies on screen.

Donīt get me wrong, Iīm not about the 360 is better than the PS3 or vice versa. I was just curious, if the reason of the bad frame rate was due to the nature of the NG2 "gameplay-engine" (hit detection, responsivness, limb- removal etc.)

Well, if the PS3 hasnīt the same problem, then it still could be that the game runs better because of the already existed engine on which they were able to improve the performance.

Iīm pretty sure that there are even more aspects that could contribute to a better performance, but thatīs how far my layman-knowledge goes.

Iīm pretty sure there is no monocausal reason like a superior console.
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CyberEvil
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 360 version actually looks better if you just look at a still scene. The engine in Sigma 2 is more stable though. Resolution doesn't do as much for the naked eye as you might expect.

As for the shadows thing, go play any PC game and turn shadows off and compare it to the framerate with them on. Shadows are actually a pretty big hit on an engine if not managed properly. Not so much as lighting or textures, but they don't help the cause.
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Wanderfalke
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks again!!! Iīm not really sure about the better look at a still scene since Sigma 2 screens look better to me. Though the rest is very enlightening.
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neoryu
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CyberEvil wrote:
The engine issues were mostly due to AI subroutines and the lighting model. Most framerate dips happened with too many characters on screen at once, so the natural deduction would be that the engine was choking on managing the AI. The more likely culprit is the dynamic shadowing for each unique character, though. The gore effects didn't help, though.


I fully agree with this 110%. Thanks for knowing your stuff, Cyber. Thumbs Up

But I have a question for you. If they had toned down the lighting, the number of enemies on screen, or some of the graphical effects, do you think they could have gotten it to run slowdown free? I just want to know what you think.

Edit: Nevermind, you pretty much already answered it in the previous post. I really appreciate how unbiased you are. That's a level of maturity which is hard to find on most message boards pertaining to this game.

So you're confirming less technical issues in the PS3 port? Was cutting back the limbs flying around that beneficial to the performance?
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CyberEvil
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not confirming anything, because I still haven't figured out if I'm under a press embargo Razz
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MSX2
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wanderfalke wrote:
One question.

If we have some guys here that have a certain know-how about things that effect frame rates, then your welcome to bring light into the dark^^

So, NG2 had quite a framerate issue. I know that AA affects frame rate and that NG2 has AA . NGS2 has no AA but has a native 720p resolution and NG2 has only a 585p resolution.

I guess Iīm right, if Iīm saying that the PS3 has theoretically more power.

On the other hand I donīt know if higher resolution, like NGS2 has, also affects frame rate.

Team Ninja decided to not use AA for NGS2. Every developer tries to make a game as good looking as possible, right?
So Team Ninja could have used AA to make NGS2 look even better, but they obviously didnīt.

My guess is that they prefered better frame rate performence instead of visual brilliance.

Now to my actual question. If the PS3 has more power, then why they didnīt use AA???

IS THE ENGINE (Iīm thinking more of the fast responsive gameplay than the graphics) OF NINJA GAIDEN SUCH A PAIN IN THE ASS FOR THE PROCESSORS (360 and PS3)???????????????????

I mean there are some titles that have 720p or higher an run at 60 fps, arenīt they?


My two cents. The short explanation is that NGII was obviously rushed and could've used a lot more polish. One way to improve performance is reducing rendering resolution since the GPU would have less of a load to deal with. Realtime dismemberment is taxing, and given that NGII used physics added a bigger load on the engine. Then there are bits like particles, lighting and various effects. All factors contributed to the massive slowdown in the stairs sequence.

Also, lower resolution and the core logic on the eDRAM on the 360's GPU allows 2X MSAA at relatively low performance cost. RSX (PS3's GPU) doesn't have the perk of eDRAM, and I think TN thought it's better to increase the resolution by 29% instead, which is more taxing than AA. They could've used Quincunx AA with the game (an Nvidia method), but it actually blurs the image slightly (see RE5 on PS3 and 360). So overall image cleanliness goes to the 360 original for sure (particularly for side by side stills)

The earlier comment about polish goes beyond the frame rate. Going by the mere media thus far, NGS2 has slightly more detailed textures, better lighting, self shadowing and depth of field (both absent on the 360), in addition to more particles all at higher res.

They just had more time to polish the game this time around and build a new engine from the Sigma and NGII one. The fact that most of the content is based on an existing game helped too.

The consoles aren't far apart as far as capabilities go (some PS3 fanboys may think it's like comparing the PS2 to the Xbox, but it's nowhere near that). It's more than safe to say that the differences are pretty much attributed to meeting a deadline with NGII, and having more of it with NGS2. Compare Capcom's DMC4; I can count the differences on one hand and no one but the truly anal would care.

To be perfectly honest, I didn't even expect the game to look as good as NGII. Lots of late ports on the PS3 are typically gimped one way or another, so this is more of a testament to the skill of TN's programmers than anything else. It's not a secret that most developers struggle with the architecture to this day (aside from Sony's own studios)
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CyberEvil
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*claps*

MSX2 is definitely the expert of the boards, here. I bet I got you on networking though!
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CyberEvil wrote:
I'm not confirming anything, because I still haven't figured out if I'm under a press embargo Razz


Understood. Laughing
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MSX2 wrote:


My two cents. The short explanation is that NGII was obviously rushed and could've used a lot more polish. One way to improve performance is reducing rendering resolution since the GPU would have less of a load to deal with. Realtime dismemberment is taxing, and given that NGII used physics added a bigger load on the engine. Then there are bits like particles, lighting and various effects. All factors contributed to the massive slowdown in the stairs sequence.

Also, lower resolution and the core logic on the eDRAM on the 360's GPU allows 2X MSAA at relatively low performance cost. RSX (PS3's GPU) doesn't have the perk of eDRAM, and I think TN thought it's better to increase the resolution by 29% instead, which is more taxing than AA. They could've used Quincunx AA with the game (an Nvidia method), but it actually blurs the image slightly (see RE5 on PS3 and 360). So overall image cleanliness goes to the 360 original for sure (particularly for side by side stills)

The earlier comment about polish goes beyond the frame rate. Going by the mere media thus far, NGS2 has slightly more detailed textures, better lighting, self shadowing and depth of field (both absent on the 360), in addition to more particles all at higher res.

They just had more time to polish the game this time around and build a new engine from the Sigma and NGII one. The fact that most of the content is based on an existing game helped too.

The consoles aren't far apart as far as capabilities go (some PS3 fanboys may think it's like comparing the PS2 to the Xbox, but it's nowhere near that). It's more than safe to say that the differences are pretty much attributed to meeting a deadline with NGII, and having more of it with NGS2. Compare Capcom's DMC4; I can count the differences on one hand and no one but the truly anal would care.

To be perfectly honest, I didn't even expect the game to look as good as NGII. Lots of late ports on the PS3 are typically gimped one way or another, so this is more of a testament to the skill of TN's programmers than anything else. It's not a secret that most developers struggle with the architecture to this day (aside from Sony's own studios)


Most of the above is correct.

So Wanderfalke, he's basically saying that PS3 isn't powerful enough to run both AA and the resolution increase simultaneously. Wink Just cutting to the chase. Sorry for being so blunt. We could also ask why the 360 version ran at a native 1120x585 resolution as opposed to NGS2's 1280x720 too.

Overall, it was a pretty smart idea for MS to include the extra 10MB eDRAM in the 360 Xenos GPU. There has already been a compromise made with the body parts disappearing instantly in Sigma 2, so the added effects like DOF, self-shadowing, etc are not as big of a burden on the hardware as a result. NGS2 should obviously run smoother than NG2, especially if enemy numbers have been adjusted on higher difficulties. Less AI to juggle = less taxing on the PS3 CPU.

The good thing is the PS3 CPU with its multiple SPE's is documented as superior to that of the 360's Xenon in practice, so there's no reason why it should have any problems with the number of enemies or processes on screen, other than those that are GPU related. The game should run as smooth as butter throughout. We see how the changes shape up soon.
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MSX2
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those body parts are very low poly and don't affect performance much, and don't forget that the purple mist isn't free. Self shadowing in-game is taxing actually, so is DOF; developers often use SPE's quite a bit for those effects.

NGII's engine just wasn't optimized well enough to run the game, whereas NGS2 uses a relatively "new" engine. Hayashi said the work is multiplatform, so their next game will benefit from it.

Like I said, time was of the essence with NGII. The lower resolution was one of the areas that suffered.

Both consoles can do AA and run the game as intended just fine at 2X. However, the 360 definitely gets the edge with AA as there are a number of well running games that do 4X MSAA; Xenos is just a better CPU, period.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CyberEvil wrote:
The engine issues were mostly due to AI subroutines and the lighting model. Most framerate dips happened with too many characters on screen at once, so the natural deduction would be that the engine was choking on managing the AI. The more likely culprit is the dynamic shadowing for each unique character, though. The gore effects didn't help, though.


what lighting model?
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