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Ninja Gaiden II Hands-On (IGN, TeamXbox, CVG, and 1UP)
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sabotage
Shadow Ninja
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To further elaborate on what I was saying earlier:

Let's look at the relationship between the WH, UF, and Dabi.

Now I pointed out in the previous post that the WH is trying to fill the Heavy Hitting/Close Range/Crowd Control. However, both the Dabi and UF are heavy hitting weapons, UF even more so when combined with 5% health. The Dabi and UF both have close range options that overshadow the WH's. The Dabi has more ground combo's than the WH and UF has access to BoN and ID, two of the safest normal moves in the game. Dabi's UT is exceptional at crowd control and is easily the best move in the game for crowd control. The UF's UT is better than the WH's for crowd control, therefore WH just ends up being outclassed in all 3 of it's categories by these two weapons.

If we look at the relationship between the Talons, Tonfas and Lunar; we see a somewhat similar situation.

All three weapons have relatively close range attacks which are fast, with the Talons being the fastest. Talons crowd control doesn't look all that great in comparison to the Lunar and Tonfas but it's close range options look far stronger just because of it's speed and strength. So Talons are looking to be the go to weapon for close range combat.

Lunar is looking to have much better crowd control than the Tonfas. Lunar has a tendency to attack enemies in front, behind, and to the sides of Ryu while he's doing combos, therefore Ryu can be well protected while he's attacking. The Tonfa's tend to only attack enemies directly in front of Ryu and to his side. His rear is pretty vulnerable. So when it comes to crowd control I'm going to have to give the edge to the Lunar.
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sabotage
Shadow Ninja
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hanoko wrote:
I took care of everything you said. I just find that it too early to define it categoricaly, we haven't seen the whole game. I join Ryu_Hayabusa's point of view:
Quote:
I'm sure the Tonfas have a use, otherwise they wouldn't be put in the game

Moreover, even the warhammer has a kind of use albeit Dabilahro or UF could easily replace it.
Don't get angry sabotage, that's just my personnal opinion, and I imagine well that you look carefully before saying that Wink


-Correct. We haven't seen the whole game, but we have seen the weapons being discussed. We've also seen their moves in action, it's not like it's hard to figure out the situations the weapon is ideal for. Wink
-I never said the WH didn't have a use. I even acknowledged that the WH has a particularly useful ability (it's UT) for KR's.

I'm not angry... just cranky. It's almost 5:30 AM and I'm really tired but I can't sleep. It's really hot in this house so I can't get comfortable. Mad
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Daemon_Maior
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I see your point, I don't think I can persuade you to another point of view so I'll stop arguing now. As a last note I would like to emphasize the importance of original combos, as I said I think the Warhammer would be worthwhile if it had some unique combos in its combo list, rather than a washed-down version of the Dabilahro's list.

We're both just theorizing about how this is going to end up, and we probably can't say any more about this until we have the game in hand and can compare the weapons ourselves. So let's wait for that until we say what uses the Tonfa will have. Smile
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sabotage
Shadow Ninja
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got nothing against a weapon that specializes in combos. A weapon that's only strength is combos may not be of practical use for a KR, but they are the ideal weapon for stylish/casual/goof off play.

Indeed, I still haven't seen either weapons ET. So who knows, the Tonfas might end up having the most ridiculously overpowered ET in the game. So powerful that enemies will immediately kill themselves before the attack actually has a chance to them out of fear of the moves awesomely, supertacular, godlike POWER!
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XNinjaRed
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sabotage wrote:
I got nothing against a weapon that specializes in combos. A weapon that's only strength is combos may not be of practical use for a KR, but they are the ideal weapon for stylish/casual/goof off play.

Indeed, I still haven't seen either weapons ET. So who knows, the Tonfas might end up having the most ridiculously overpowered ET in the game. So powerful that enemies will immediately kill themselves before the attack actually has a chance to them out of fear of the moves awesomely, supertacular, godlike POWER!

Actually, the Tonfa's ET could be seen in the GDC special edition:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnQ5O8YHSW8
@ 4:49

Well, from what we've seen, the Tonfas got quite a unique ET/UT.
ET is a dash to the enemy to auto combo then dash again to a different enemy and another auto combo.
UT is a dash to the enemy to auto combo then dash again to a different enemy and another auto combo then dash AGAIN to ANOTHER different enemy for an extra long autocombo.

That UT was able to get 39 hits in one go. That already kinda makes it useful.
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sabotage
Shadow Ninja
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

XNinjaRed wrote:
sabotage wrote:
I got nothing against a weapon that specializes in combos. A weapon that's only strength is combos may not be of practical use for a KR, but they are the ideal weapon for stylish/casual/goof off play.

Indeed, I still haven't seen either weapons ET. So who knows, the Tonfas might end up having the most ridiculously overpowered ET in the game. So powerful that enemies will immediately kill themselves before the attack actually has a chance to them out of fear of the moves awesomely, supertacular, godlike POWER!

Actually, the Tonfa's ET could be seen in the GDC special edition:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnQ5O8YHSW8
@ 4:49

Well, from what we've seen, the Tonfas got quite a unique ET/UT.
ET is a dash to the enemy to auto combo then dash again to a different enemy and another auto combo.
UT is a dash to the enemy to auto combo then dash again to a different enemy and another auto combo then dash AGAIN to ANOTHER different enemy for an extra long autocombo.

That UT was able to get 39 hits in one go. That already kinda makes it useful.


I didn't even notice the distiction between it's UT and ET. Looked like one move instead of actually being two different moves.

I wouldn't say it's UT is useful though. Not for a KR. It's UT could potentially kill 3 enemies, meaning you just robbed yourself of points. Looks cool as hell though. Wink
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XNinjaRed
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think UTs in general are very useful in Karma runs anymore, now that OTs give 10000 points...
And the Tonfas UT kills more enemies then the Claw's UT.
That and the claws dismembers much easier, so the Tonfas are more for getting more hits.
I would say that alone is enough to distinguish the Tonfas from the Claws.
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MCD
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

question: what's OT?
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Lesser Ninja
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

obliteration technique
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i see, thanks.
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sabotage
Shadow Ninja
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

XNinjaRed wrote:
I don't think UTs in general are very useful in Karma runs anymore, now that OTs give 10000 points...
And the Tonfas UT kills more enemies then the Claw's UT.
That and the claws dismembers much easier, so the Tonfas are more for getting more hits.
I would say that alone is enough to distinguish the Tonfas from the Claws.


I have a feeling that's going to change in the final game. If OT's gave 10k then KR's in general are going to get really simple. Just Counter Attack then immediately link to an OT. Most counters cause a dismemberment in some way. The Talons Counter Kick is an instant decap the majority of the time it's used and you actually can link in an OT on the dead enemy. Furthermore, the Counter Kick will give the player IK points, so combine that with the follow-up OT and you're looking at 13k easy points.
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XNinjaRed
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sabotage wrote:
XNinjaRed wrote:
I don't think UTs in general are very useful in Karma runs anymore, now that OTs give 10000 points...
And the Tonfas UT kills more enemies then the Claw's UT.
That and the claws dismembers much easier, so the Tonfas are more for getting more hits.
I would say that alone is enough to distinguish the Tonfas from the Claws.


I have a feeling that's going to change in the final game. If OT's gave 10k then KR's in general are going to get really simple. Just Counter Attack then immediately link to an OT. Most counters cause a dismemberment in some way. The Talons Counter Kick is an instant decap the majority of the time it's used and you actually can link in an OT on the dead enemy. Furthermore, the Counter Kick will give the player IK points, so combine that with the follow-up OT and you're looking at 13k easy points.

Yeah, well it's not much of a difference compared to the mass UTing we have now, right?
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sabotage
Shadow Ninja
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

XNinjaRed wrote:
sabotage wrote:
XNinjaRed wrote:
I don't think UTs in general are very useful in Karma runs anymore, now that OTs give 10000 points...
And the Tonfas UT kills more enemies then the Claw's UT.
That and the claws dismembers much easier, so the Tonfas are more for getting more hits.
I would say that alone is enough to distinguish the Tonfas from the Claws.


I have a feeling that's going to change in the final game. If OT's gave 10k then KR's in general are going to get really simple. Just Counter Attack then immediately link to an OT. Most counters cause a dismemberment in some way. The Talons Counter Kick is an instant decap the majority of the time it's used and you actually can link in an OT on the dead enemy. Furthermore, the Counter Kick will give the player IK points, so combine that with the follow-up OT and you're looking at 13k easy points.

Yeah, well it's not much of a difference compared to the mass UTing we have now, right?


There's a difference IMO. When you factor in Time Limits (which I'm hoping will be in the final game) then you can see that OT's have a definite edge over UT's because they are moves that are performed real quickly with each weapon. OT's will become the natural follow-up to a Counter Attack. It'll almost be like NG all over again when all you had to do was spam counter attacks in order to get the majority of the time encounter bonuses. Except now you'll be getting an additional chance to get 10k points after each counter is performed.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

XNinjaRed wrote:
I don't think UTs in general are very useful in Karma runs anymore, now that OTs give 10000 points...
And the Tonfas UT kills more enemies then the Claw's UT.
That and the claws dismembers much easier, so the Tonfas are more for getting more hits.
I would say that alone is enough to distinguish the Tonfas from the Claws.


Hold the phone.


If sabo is saying counter attack to OT is 13k, wouldn't a UT to an OT gain a net 15? And sabo, thats only if you get an instant kill from the counter. If harder difficulties don't produce consitant decaps, thats not a very safe route.

So I'm thinking, starting with ET's and UT's leading into massive amounts of OT's might be the way to go, if there is a ET/UT that a)doesn't kill off the enemy (or is relatively weak) and dismembers in some way and b) dismembered enemies don't die on their own any time soon and c) it is possible to more easily and quickly charge a ET/UT, then wouldn't that be the way to maximize karma?

Of course, I'm assuming there is not a time constraint, and I'm thinking of higher difficulties (for some reason thats the only level i think on for karma). Plus, I don't really know much about these weapons ET/UT situation, because I have only casually watched the footage.

And then, if you have multiple dismembered enemies, and do, say, three strait OT's on enemies which were just dismembered by that ET/UT, there should be a killing spree karma bonus, which just piles on the points.

Is that not a viable karma opportunity?

Plus, you can still drag essence.
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XNinjaRed
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sabotage wrote:
XNinjaRed wrote:
sabotage wrote:
XNinjaRed wrote:
I don't think UTs in general are very useful in Karma runs anymore, now that OTs give 10000 points...
And the Tonfas UT kills more enemies then the Claw's UT.
That and the claws dismembers much easier, so the Tonfas are more for getting more hits.
I would say that alone is enough to distinguish the Tonfas from the Claws.


I have a feeling that's going to change in the final game. If OT's gave 10k then KR's in general are going to get really simple. Just Counter Attack then immediately link to an OT. Most counters cause a dismemberment in some way. The Talons Counter Kick is an instant decap the majority of the time it's used and you actually can link in an OT on the dead enemy. Furthermore, the Counter Kick will give the player IK points, so combine that with the follow-up OT and you're looking at 13k easy points.

Yeah, well it's not much of a difference compared to the mass UTing we have now, right?


There's a difference IMO. When you factor in Time Limits (which I'm hoping will be in the final game) then you can see that OT's have a definite edge over UT's because they are moves that are performed real quickly with each weapon. OT's will become the natural follow-up to a Counter Attack. It'll almost be like NG all over again when all you had to do was spam counter attacks in order to get the majority of the time encounter bonuses. Except now you'll be getting an additional chance to get 10k points after each counter is performed.

But I'm pretty sure waiting to counterattack wouldn't be such a good idea, especially if there is a time limit. I mean, I tried to wait for the MSAT fiends to do a normal attack for me so I can counterattack for my combo vids, yet I end up dodging grabs much more then be able to counterattack.
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