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Ninja Gaiden II Hands-On (IGN, TeamXbox, CVG, and 1UP)
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sabotage
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daemon_Maior wrote:
sabotage wrote:
My problem with the Tonfa's is that they don't really seem to have their own niche. The Talons look like the superior weapon for close range combat and the Lunar looks like the go to weapon for crowd control. The Tonfa's kind of get lost in the shuffle.


Not every weapon need his own niche, I think. I mean, the Unlabored Flawlessness and the Dabilahro are both the 'Slow Strong Weapon' and in my opinion they're far from exchangeable amongst each other. This is even a pretty poor example, since they have some moves in common, but I really don;t see the Tonfa having anything in common with any other weapon, even the Falcon's Talons, which seem to be in the same niche of the 'Very Close Reach Weapons'.


I disagree. Every weapon needs a niche, every weapon needs at least one quality that'll make it the ideal weapon for a particular situation. Perhaps I am jumping the gun and should wait until I actually play the game but for now I'm just going off what I've seen in gameplay videos.

The Tonfa's have a lot in common with the Talon's actually. Watch the GDC video, the Tonfa's are used in the video and the weapon seriously doesn't have much going for it. Everything it does, the Talons does better.
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sabotage
Shadow Ninja
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ryu_Hayabusa wrote:
sabotage wrote:
My problem with the Tonfa's is that they don't really seem to have their own niche. The Talons look like the superior weapon for close range combat and the Lunar looks like the go to weapon for crowd control. The Tonfa's kind of get lost in the shuffle.


My guess is that the Tonfa's are a hell of a lot faster. You can thwirl them faster around then you can swing the Talons. You can see that in the UT of the Tonfa's, it, while long, hits an insane amount of times.


THEN YOUR GUESS IS WRONG!!!1111one one one!1!1!!!


Ok but seriously, Talons are way faster than the Tonfas. The Tonfas have some recovery on the moves where Ryu does twirl the weapon (although it does look cool), Talons have pretty much zero recovery on a lot of it's moves. It's even been said several times in previews that the Talons are fast. Really fast. And really strong.
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Ryu_Hayabusa
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wanderfalke wrote:



Friggin' epic.

@Sabo: Laughing

We've only seen so much at the moment. I'm sure the Tonfas have a use, otherwise they wouldn't be put in the game. Maybe it is better for crowd control up close? That is, until you get Kusa.
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MCD
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

is ryu's model different (read: better) or is just me?
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Ryu_Hayabusa
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MCD wrote:
is ryu's model different (read: better) or is just me?


That's because there is now more room for the little details that make the awesome model of Ryu even more badass.
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Mesharey
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Are all cutscenes using the in-game engine? Are there any more CG cutscenes?
Most of the cut-scenes are in-game, but there are still some CG cut-scenes. And that's actually the easiest way to see how much better the game looks compared to NG1. Because the CG doesn't look that much better than the in-game cinematics.


http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/865/865841p3.html

YES ! Very Happy
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Daemon_Maior
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sabotage wrote:
I disagree. Every weapon needs a niche, every weapon needs at least one quality that'll make it the ideal weapon for a particular situation. Perhaps I am jumping the gun and should wait until I actually play the game but for now I'm just going off what I've seen in gameplay videos.

The Tonfa's have a lot in common with the Talon's actually. Watch the GDC video, the Tonfa's are used in the video and the weapon seriously doesn't have much going for it. Everything it does, the Talons does better.


As I said, compare it to the Unlabored Flawlessness and the Dabilahro. In my opinion they're pretty similar in a lot of ways, but they're absolutely not interchangeable. Most people will agree the Dabilahro is inferior, but no-one will claim it to be useless. My guess is that the Tonfa will have their use, even if they're often outclassed by the Talons.
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Wanderfalke
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mesharey wrote:
Quote:
Are all cutscenes using the in-game engine? Are there any more CG cutscenes?
Most of the cut-scenes are in-game, but there are still some CG cut-scenes. And that's actually the easiest way to see how much better the game looks compared to NG1. Because the CG doesn't look that much better than the in-game cinematics.


http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/865/865841p3.html

YES ! Very Happy


Mesharey, I was thinking the exact same thing when I read the line Mr. Green
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MCD
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ryu_Hayabusa wrote:
MCD wrote:
is ryu's model different (read: better) or is just me?


That's because there is now more room for the little details that make the awesome model of Ryu even more badass.

:bow hayabusa :bow
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sabotage
Shadow Ninja
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daemon_Maior wrote:
sabotage wrote:
I disagree. Every weapon needs a niche, every weapon needs at least one quality that'll make it the ideal weapon for a particular situation. Perhaps I am jumping the gun and should wait until I actually play the game but for now I'm just going off what I've seen in gameplay videos.

The Tonfa's have a lot in common with the Talon's actually. Watch the GDC video, the Tonfa's are used in the video and the weapon seriously doesn't have much going for it. Everything it does, the Talons does better.


As I said, compare it to the Unlabored Flawlessness and the Dabilahro. In my opinion they're pretty similar in a lot of ways, but they're absolutely not interchangeable. Most people will agree the Dabilahro is inferior, but no-one will claim it to be useless. My guess is that the Tonfa will have their use, even if they're often outclassed by the Talons.


Ok.

Dabi's niche- Best ET and UT in the game. Both ET and UT are strong, hit fast, recover quickly and have ridiculous range.
UF's niche- Gets a massive power boost when players health is down to 5%. Also the only heavy weapon with access to BoN and ID, therefore it has the safest combo's to use out of all of the heavy weapons.

Let's throw in the WarHammer just to help flesh this out.

Warhammer- Overshadowed by both weapons. The only redeeming quality of the weapon is the limited range of it's UT, making it useful for KR's. However, for the most part the weapon is a bench warmer.


The Tonfa is looking like it could possibly be the WarHammer in NGII.
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sanman
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So what you're saying is that...

they are basically, upgradable nunchaku warhammer goodness.


Basically, useless after a point.



Actually, nunchaku are good for karma purposes.


So it may be useful, but we get talons early, which is the only thing they could be a precursor to.




They don't even have a *barely-useful weapon catagory* niche.



nunchaku->flails

warhammer->Dabi, DDB, UF

tonfas-> ???
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Daemon_Maior
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sabotage wrote:
Ok.

Dabi's niche- Best ET and UT in the game. Both ET and UT are strong, hit fast, recover quickly and have ridiculous range.
UF's niche- Gets a massive power boost when players health is down to 5%. Also the only heavy weapon with access to BoN and ID, therefore it has the safest combo's to use out of all of the heavy weapons.

Let's throw in the WarHammer just to help flesh this out.

Warhammer- Overshadowed by both weapons. The only redeeming quality of the weapon is the limited range of it's UT, making it useful for KR's. However, for the most part the weapon is a bench warmer.

The Tonfa is looking like it could possibly be the WarHammer in NGII.


I don't see it becoming a Warhammer equivalent, actually. There's a reason I suggested you take the Dabilahro and the Unlabored Flawlessness, leaving the Warhammer out of the picture. I agree with you in that there's nothing the Warhammer could do the Dabilahro or Unlabored Flawlessness couldn't do better. However, this is purely a movelist problem; everything that can be done with the Warhammer could be done with the Dabilahro, with the slight exception of piercing man-sized enemies onto the Warhammer's spikes, and of course, the shape of the UT. I am of the opinion that just one or two unique combos for the Warhammer would have made the weapon worthwhile.

Now, as for the comparison I think should be done, at least based on current information, I will assume you agree with me in that the Unlabored Flawlessness is the better of the two. Now, also assuming the Talons will be better than the Tonfa, which is likely, but by no means certain, I think the two new weapons would end up in a situation similar to the Unlabored Flawlessness and the Dabilahro. While one is obviously inferior to the other, it does have its uses. Like the Dabilahro's UT has greater range than that of the Unlabored Flawlessness, the Tonfa might have a redeeming quality like a few more guard-breaking combos, or longer combos.

My point is that the Tonfa seem unique in their available combos, and therefore, while not surpassing the Talons' greatness in the same field, will have their uses against certain enemies and bosses.
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Hanoko
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is funny to see how you judge Tonfa while you even didn't try it, let's wait for the game before saying "this weapon is useless" or "it sucks compared to talons".

BTW, the screenshots are getting smater! When we see videos, it is obvius that the difference between CG cutscenes and in-game cutscene is getting more more short!
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sabotage
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hanoko wrote:
It is funny to see how you judge Tonfa while you even didn't try it, let's wait for the game before saying "this weapon is useless" or "it sucks compared to talons".

It's funny to see your post and notice you have selective reading and a vivid imagination. You completely warped my statements and took them way out of context.

I already pointed out that I was jumping the gun in the very first post on this page of the thread. However, my posts are not exactly uninformed. I have watched several gameplay videos countless times and my experience with the previous NG games have given me a good idea on what to expect from each weapon.

Daemon_Maior wrote:
I don't see it becoming a Warhammer equivalent, actually. There's a reason I suggested you take the Dabilahro and the Unlabored Flawlessness, leaving the Warhammer out of the picture. I agree with you in that there's nothing the Warhammer could do the Dabilahro or Unlabored Flawlessness couldn't do better. However, this is purely a movelist problem; everything that can be done with the Warhammer could be done with the Dabilahro, with the slight exception of piercing man-sized enemies onto the Warhammer's spikes, and of course, the shape of the UT. I am of the opinion that just one or two unique combos for the Warhammer would have made the weapon worthwhile.

Now, as for the comparison I think should be done, at least based on current information, I will assume you agree with me in that the Unlabored Flawlessness is the better of the two. Now, also assuming the Talons will be better than the Tonfa, which is likely, but by no means certain, I think the two new weapons would end up in a situation similar to the Unlabored Flawlessness and the Dabilahro. While one is obviously inferior to the other, it does have its uses. Like the Dabilahro's UT has greater range than that of the Unlabored Flawlessness, the Tonfa might have a redeeming quality like a few more guard-breaking combos, or longer combos.

My point is that the Tonfa seem unique in their available combos, and therefore, while not surpassing the Talons' greatness in the same field, will have their uses against certain enemies and bosses.


There's a reason I added the Warhammer in the comparison. The Tonfas are trying to fill a close-range/crowd control niche IMO. Pretty similar to the Warhammers position:

Warhammer is the heavy hitting, close range, crowd control weapon.
Tonfas are the fast hitting, close range, crowd control weapon.

Problem is, Talons look far better for close range and is faster while the Lunar is looking better at crowd control. Therefore, the Tonfas are getting lost in the shuffle when I think about what weapons would I use in certain situations.

I'm not saying the Tonfas are going to be completely useless, just saying they could possibly end up being NGII's Warhammer- only being used in rare situations. It's possible but not probable.

Of course everything I'm saying is coming from the perspective that one would use when doing a KR. If you're not playing for score then any weapon is going to be effective.
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Hanoko
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I took care of everything you said. I just find that it too early to define it categoricaly, we haven't seen the whole game. I join Ryu_Hayabusa's point of view:
Quote:
I'm sure the Tonfas have a use, otherwise they wouldn't be put in the game

Moreover, even the warhammer has a kind of use albeit Dabilahro or UF could easily replace it.
Don't get angry sabotage, that's just my personnal opinion, and I imagine well that you look carefully before saying that Wink
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