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DMC4 is getting a Ninja Gaiden-like combat engine.....
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Ninja Of Chaos
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 6:53 pm    Post subject: DMC4 is getting a Ninja Gaiden-like combat engine..... Reply with quote

1. Dante's real face is confirmed. Older, cooler, and the depth in the eyes is similiar to DMC2.

Dante has a little of beard.

2. Dante will have MUCH more moves than the total account of BOTH DMC1 and DMC3.

3. Kobayashi says that he doesn't know what PS3's limit is, but the LOWEST detail of Real Time Proceeding shall be the level of E3 or TGS movie. Basically the graphics will equal that or be better than, the graphics of the trailers.

4. Kobayashi also wants to make the game easier to control since DMC3 was murder on the hands. This will probably soften up the Crazy Combo/Shooting aspect of the game that promoted button mashing.

That probably also means that he is easing up on the learning curve.

5. According to the director Itsuno, DMC4 would be generally the "Power-Uped" DMC3, from the view of each demension,

The scene, music, actions, weapons, enemies,....etc. And would put more FTG theory into it.

So Itsuno emphasized, the way that DMC4 is going is the "hard" way. Itsuno basically confirmed that DMC4 will be harder, there is no turning back.

6. Next time when you see any new info or media about DMC4 you will see the "Finally Designed" Dante in official Real Time proceeding scenes.

7. The Release Date, of course, is still unknown, but it shall be related to PS3's.

8. DMC4 is "ONLY" for PlayStation 3.

Courtesy of IGN boards and VjDante.

Easier controls = context sensitive buttons = strings.

Told ya Strings were the future of combat engines after Team NINJA showed the world how well a free-form engine could be done with them. Cool
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yay, I sense another long and drawn out debate about free form fighting!

*gets popcorn and soda*
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SWEET! Wave


*runs into the seats and sits behind Ookami and starts kicking the back of the seat until he looks back and yells at me and I run away......what.......I'm not crazy*
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C.E. wrote:
SWEET! Wave


*runs into the seats and sits behind Ookami and starts kicking the back of the seat until he looks back and yells at me and I run away......what.......I'm not crazy*


*Notices MCE's antics and invites him to share some of the popcorn*
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sabotage
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 11:06 pm    Post subject: Re: DMC4 is getting a Ninja Gaiden-like combat engine..... Reply with quote

Ninja Of Chaos wrote:
1. Dante's real face is confirmed. Older, cooler, and the depth in the eyes is similiar to DMC2.

Dante has a little of beard.


*Tries to picture Dante with a beard*

Heh, you know what... he'd probably look really badass with a beard.

Quote:
2. Dante will have MUCH more moves than the total account of BOTH DMC1 and DMC3.


I already figured as much. Not much of a surprise.

Quote:
3. Kobayashi says that he doesn't know what PS3's limit is, but the LOWEST detail of Real Time Proceeding shall be the level of E3 or TGS movie. Basically the graphics will equal that or be better than, the graphics of the trailers.


The DMC4 trailers graphics were amazing looking, even though Dante looked like a bvtch... I'm pretty amazed that CAPCOM thinks they can achieve that level of quality or better in real time.

Quote:
4.Kobayashi also wants to make the game easier to control since DMC3 was murder on the hands. This will probably soften up the Crazy Combo/Shooting aspect of the game that promoted button mashing. That probably also means that he is easing up on the learning curve.


I thought DMC3's combo system was fine the way it is. I'd rather them build upon that and add more depth to it. CAPCOM better not make the game easier though, I don't want another DMC2 type-game....

Quote:
5. According to the director Itsuno, DMC4 would be generally the "Power-Uped" DMC3, from the view of each demension. The scene, music, actions, weapons, enemies,....etc. And would put more FTG theory into it.


Powered Up DMC3 huh. Sounds like they are building on DMC3's combo system. The scene is fine, I like the gothic settings. The music... well, it's of the love or hate variety, I don't see DMC4 changing anything really. Actions, hmm... be more specific. This could mean anything. Weapons, more weapons are always nice. As long as the Strikes are flexible I have no problem with it. Enemies, well, beating up some new faces is always fun. FTG theory? No idea what that means.

Quote:
So Itsuno emphasized, the way that DMC4 is going is the "hard" way. Itsuno basically confirmed that DMC4 will be harder, there is no turning back.


YAY! Yes CAPCOM! MAKE IT HARDER! DMC3's DMD MODE WAS A JOKE!

Quote:
6. Next time when you see any new info or media about DMC4 you will see the "Finally Designed" Dante in official Real Time proceeding scenes.


I can't wait. I'm glad they redesigned Dante. He seriously looked gay in the latest DMC4 trailer.

Quote:
7. The Release Date, of course, is still unknown, but it shall be related to PS3's.


Summer 2007. Quote me on that.

Quote:
8. DMC4 is "ONLY" for PlayStation 3.


OK. If DMC4 is half as good as what I'm picturing it to be I guess I will shell out the $500 bucks to play it. I'll be b*tching and moaning the whole time but I'll pick up a PS3 to play it.


Quote:
Easier controls = context sensitive buttons = strings. Told ya Strings were the future of combat engines after Team NINJA showed the world how well a free-form engine could be done with them. Cool


Easier controls does not automatically mean Strings. CAPCOM has always prefered Chains. Always. I don't see any reason why they would stray from that. Especially since it seems like they're building on the very stable foundation that DMC3 laid out. My guess for DMC4, more Flexible Strikes=More Dynamic Chains= Many more options for Free Forming. To me, I have a feeling they are going to smooth out the cluncky lock-on targeting. That's the only flaw with the controls in DMC3.
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Dances w Ninjas
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:38 am    Post subject: Re: DMC4 is getting a Ninja Gaiden-like combat engine..... Reply with quote

sabotage wrote:
Summer 2007. Quote me on that.


Just did Smile
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

we will se how good it will be
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sabotage wrote:
Easier controls does not automatically mean Strings. CAPCOM has always prefered Chains. Always. I don't see any reason why they would stray from that. Especially since it seems like they're building on the very stable foundation that DMC3 laid out. My guess for DMC4, more Flexible Strikes=More Dynamic Chains= Many more options for Free Forming. To me, I have a feeling they are going to smooth out the cluncky lock-on targeting. That's the only flaw with the controls in DMC3.


He says the shooting/crazy combo part of it.

And yes it does. As of right now, DMC has been about single hit chains with each hit having different button locations. Now that was a major pain in the ass, and since they are ADDING nearly twice as much moves, you are running out of buttons.

Smooth and easy controls while having dozens of moves can only be achieved through context sensitive attacks.....which means we are getting strings........or dial-up if Capcom gets too lazy.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ninja of Chaos wrote:
He says the shooting/crazy combo part of it.

And yes it does. As of right now, DMC has been about single hit chains with each hit having different button locations. Now that was a major pain in the ass, and since they are ADDING nearly twice as much moves, you are running out of buttons.


Strings are dial up combos... Neutral You're dialing in the buttons to perform a combo.

How hard is it to push Back+X for one strike, Toward+X for another strike, and X for another Strike. How is that complicated? I'm sorry if a simple moveset like that is too complicated for you. I thought it was easy and basic to get a grasp of. The beauty of it was how extremely flexible every Strike within DMC3 truly was. CAPCOM might add some Strings like they did in DMC3.

*Basic Strings in DMC3: XXX, X(Pause)XX, XX(PAUSE)XX(Rapidly keep pushing X)*

I can see CAPCOM evolving off of this by adding more simple Strings like this but Chains are still going to be the order of the day because DMC will always have Strikes that can be substitued in at any time. You can't have true free-froming without Flexible Strikes. It's just not going to happen.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ookami wrote:
M.C.E. wrote:
SWEET! Wave


*runs into the seats and sits behind Ookami and starts kicking the back of the seat until he looks back and yells at me and I run away......what.......I'm not crazy*


*Notices MCE's antics and invites him to share some of the popcorn*


*accepts the offer and enjoys the show*
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sabotage wrote:
Ninja of Chaos wrote:
He says the shooting/crazy combo part of it.

And yes it does. As of right now, DMC has been about single hit chains with each hit having different button locations. Now that was a major pain in the ass, and since they are ADDING nearly twice as much moves, you are running out of buttons.


Strings are dial up combos... Neutral You're dialing in the buttons to perform a combo.

How hard is it to push Back+X for one strike, Toward+X for another strike, and X for another Strike. How is that complicated? I'm sorry if a simple moveset like that is too complicated for you. I thought it was easy and basic to get a grasp of. The beauty of it was how extremely flexible every Strike within DMC3 truly was. CAPCOM might add some Strings like they did in DMC3.

*Basic Strings in DMC3: XXX, X(Pause)XX, XX(PAUSE)XX(Rapidly keep pushing X)*

I can see CAPCOM evolving off of this by adding more simple Strings like this but Chains are still going to be the order of the day because DMC will always have Strikes that can be substitued in at any time. You can't have true free-froming without Flexible Strikes. It's just not going to happen.


No.....that's your mistake. Dial-up combos are just that...dial-up. You can't do anything to them, just input the commands and watch it happen. Strings are completly different since they are fully costumizable.

And i never said it was complicated, just a pain in the ass to pull off. Those are simple ones. R1 + O + Triangle is a pain to do.

So by your logic, less possible options for fan-made combos makes more of a free-form engine?
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Strings VS dial-up: I don't understand your argument. You said that dial-up combos never change. But strings don't change either. In NGB, XYXXXXY will always be ID. No matter what I do, I can't make Ryu do anything else for that combination of buttons. So how is that any different from your dial up combo? Sorry if I'm completely missing the point...again. Embarassed

So basically I'm asking: How are strings customizeable? You mean like shuriken canceling and starting another string? *is confuddled* Right now I think you might mean that strings are customizable because I can do this: XYXXX (pause) OLXXYYBXXXY start one string, end it prematurely, and then beginning a new string. But I'm not sure that that is customizing your strings, because I'll I'm really doing is starting a combo but not finishing it, starting a combo, not finishing it. I'll always have to go back to the same starting moves (ie, I can't go from OL X to the last X of Early Winter Rain without starting the string that has that move at the end of it).

If I could customize my strings, wouldn't I be able to put the attacks in any order I wanted, creating my own string?

I'm hoping that someone will explain this, because I'm still having trouble understanding both sides of the "what is free forming" argument.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Read my post Ookami. Wink

Ninja Of Chaos wrote:
sabotage wrote:
Ninja of Chaos wrote:
He says the shooting/crazy combo part of it.

And yes it does. As of right now, DMC has been about single hit chains with each hit having different button locations. Now that was a major pain in the ass, and since they are ADDING nearly twice as much moves, you are running out of buttons.


Strings are dial up combos... Neutral You're dialing in the buttons to perform a combo.

How hard is it to push Back+X for one strike, Toward+X for another strike, and X for another Strike. How is that complicated? I'm sorry if a simple moveset like that is too complicated for you. I thought it was easy and basic to get a grasp of. The beauty of it was how extremely flexible every Strike within DMC3 truly was. CAPCOM might add some Strings like they did in DMC3.

*Basic Strings in DMC3: XXX, X(Pause)XX, XX(PAUSE)XX(Rapidly keep pushing X)*

I can see CAPCOM evolving off of this by adding more simple Strings like this but Chains are still going to be the order of the day because DMC will always have Strikes that can be substitued in at any time. You can't have true free-froming without Flexible Strikes. It's just not going to happen.


No.....that's your mistake. Dial-up combos are just that...dial-up. You can't do anything to them, just input the commands and watch it happen. Strings are completly different since they are fully costumizable.

And i never said it was complicated, just a pain in the ass to pull off. Those are simple ones. R1 + O + Triangle is a pain to do.

So by your logic, less possible options for fan-made combos makes more of a free-form engine?


No, my logic for free-forming is far deeper than you're making it out to be.

Having Flexible Strikes that can be substituted in a combo at any time is the key ingrediant to free forming. DMC3 succeeds greatly at doing this while NGB fails miserably. DMC3's main focus is giving the player as much freedom as possible when performing a combo. The Strikes within DMC3's game engine are so flexible you can even substitute them for a Strike within a string at any time.

Example: A DMC3 basic String

XXX- A standard 3 hit combo

What makes DMC3's free-forming engine FAR DEEPER than NGB's is the ability to turn a basic String into a complex Chain.

Example with just 2 Stand Alone Flexible Strikes: (Although DMC3 has a MASSIVE amount of Stand Alone Strikes. I'm only going to need 2 of them to prove how dynamic DMC3's free form engine truly is)

-High Time (Back+X) (Hold X for Chaser)
-Stinger (Toward+X) (Rapid press X for Million Stab)

These 2 Strikes can be substituted within the XXX String at any time, thus turning it into a Chain.

X-Stinger-Million Stab
High Time-Stinger
X-High Time-X
High Time-X-X-High Time-X-X-Stinger
X-X-High Time
X-X-Stinger
X-High Time-Stinger
High Time-X-Stinger
X-X-High Time (Chaser)-X
X-Stinger-Million Stab-High Time-XXX
X-Stinger-Million Stab-High Time-XX-High Time (Chaser)- X
X-X-Stinger-Million Stab-Stinger
X-X-High Time-X-X-Stinger-Million Stab-High Time-X-X-Stinger-Million Stab-High Time(Chaser)-land- Stinger

I could go on and on with so many different variations with just these Strikes and the basic XXX String. Hell, I can even show you how much more flexibility the game allows the player if I added in the Guns into the combos. The point is Flexible Strikes that can be substituted in on the fly to manipulate a String and turn it into a complex Chain is true free forming my friend.

That was just an example of what 2 Strikes can do. DMC3 gives the player a plethora amount of Strikes per weapon. Each Strike with each weapon is equally as flexible as the other. Not to mention the flexibility the Guns allow the player as well. Now, add in the fact that you can switch between weapons on the fly and the combo possiblites are literally endless. This is free forming at it's finest. By giving the player complete control over their combo's the game allows you and even encourages you to get as creative as possible. The way the "Style" system works only helps prove this.

You can even form a complex Chain with just the Flexibles Strikes themselves. You don't even need a String to use as a base. Every single Strike in DMC3 and every single Strike within DMC3's Strings are all extremely flexible and can be substituted in on the fly. No pausing is needed, it's all one constant flow. The mark of a true free form combo.

Ninja Gaiden fails at free forming because there are ZERO Flexible Strikes that can be substituted within a String at anytime. In order to "free form" in Ninja Gaiden you have to go through a Strikes ARF's. The very animation you praise is also the denying factor for true free forming.

Example:

Two Stand Alone Strikes for Ninja Gaiden.

TDS/DS:

-Windmill Slash (Toward+X)
-Azure Dragon (Toward+Y)

Now, a basic TDS/DS String.

XXX- A basic 3 hit combo.

I can't manipulate this String with my Stand Alone Strikes because neither the String or the Strikes are flexible. The Strings in NGB are all Dial Up combo. The game does not allow the player to create a Chain.

X-Windmill Slash-X will not come out in a constant flow.
XX-Windmill Slash will not come out in a constant flow.
X-Windmill Slash-Azure Dragon will not come out in a constant flow.
XX-Azure Dragon will not come out in a constant flow.
Windmill Slash-X-Azure Dragon will not come out in a constant flow.

Windmill Slash-Azure Dragon will come out in a constant flow.
Windmill Slash-XX will come out in a constant flow but it's not the combo I want to perform.

Anyways, you see the point. Hardly any flexibility at all.

NGB has too much of a focus on Strings. The game does not allow the player to manipulate a String in any way they want and turn it into a Chain. The lack of Flexible Strikes only helps prove this. The Stand Alone Strikes you do have are far from flexible because you can NOT substitute them into a String at anytime you want in a constant flow. Thus, NGB fails when it comes to true free forming.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:03 am    Post subject: Re: DMC4 is getting a Ninja Gaiden-like combat engine..... Reply with quote

Ninja Of Chaos wrote:

Told ya Strings were the future of combat engines after Team NINJA showed the world how well a free-form engine could be done with them. Cool

DMC3's engine is way more flexible than NG's engine Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ookami wrote:
@Strings VS dial-up: I don't understand your argument. You said that dial-up combos never change. But strings don't change either. In NGB, XYXXXXY will always be ID. No matter what I do, I can't make Ryu do anything else for that combination of buttons. So how is that any different from your dial up combo? Sorry if I'm completely missing the point...again. Embarassed

So basically I'm asking: How are strings customizeable? You mean like shuriken canceling and starting another string? *is confuddled* Right now I think you might mean that strings are customizable because I can do this: XYXXX (pause) OLXXYYBXXXY start one string, end it prematurely, and then beginning a new string. But I'm not sure that that is customizing your strings, because I'll I'm really doing is starting a combo but not finishing it, starting a combo, not finishing it. I'll always have to go back to the same starting moves (ie, I can't go from OL X to the last X of Early Winter Rain without starting the string that has that move at the end of it).

If I could customize my strings, wouldn't I be able to put the attacks in any order I wanted, creating my own string?

I'm hoping that someone will explain this, because I'm still having trouble understanding both sides of the "what is free forming" argument.


Dial-up = Forward, Down, Backwards, Forward, B. This is how you do most of the basic UTs of GGX2. Can you take F, D only and then continue with something else? Nope. It's a premade move that has been put into the game as just that....ONE move.

And the rest of the post makes no sense. How could X be a strike of the Izuna Drop when i'm standing on the ground? (Just an example)

sabotage wrote:
Read my post Ookami. Wink

Ninja Of Chaos wrote:
sabotage wrote:
Ninja of Chaos wrote:
He says the shooting/crazy combo part of it.

And yes it does. As of right now, DMC has been about single hit chains with each hit having different button locations. Now that was a major pain in the ass, and since they are ADDING nearly twice as much moves, you are running out of buttons.


Strings are dial up combos... Neutral You're dialing in the buttons to perform a combo.

How hard is it to push Back+X for one strike, Toward+X for another strike, and X for another Strike. How is that complicated? I'm sorry if a simple moveset like that is too complicated for you. I thought it was easy and basic to get a grasp of. The beauty of it was how extremely flexible every Strike within DMC3 truly was. CAPCOM might add some Strings like they did in DMC3.

*Basic Strings in DMC3: XXX, X(Pause)XX, XX(PAUSE)XX(Rapidly keep pushing X)*

I can see CAPCOM evolving off of this by adding more simple Strings like this but Chains are still going to be the order of the day because DMC will always have Strikes that can be substitued in at any time. You can't have true free-froming without Flexible Strikes. It's just not going to happen.


No.....that's your mistake. Dial-up combos are just that...dial-up. You can't do anything to them, just input the commands and watch it happen. Strings are completly different since they are fully costumizable.

And i never said it was complicated, just a pain in the ass to pull off. Those are simple ones. R1 + O + Triangle is a pain to do.

So by your logic, less possible options for fan-made combos makes more of a free-form engine?


No, my logic for free-forming is far deeper than you're making it out to be.

Having Flexible Strikes that can be substituted in a combo at any time is the key ingrediant to free forming. DMC3 succeeds greatly at doing this while NGB fails miserably. DMC3's main focus is giving the player as much freedom as possible when performing a combo. The Strikes within DMC3's game engine are so flexible you can even substitute them for a Strike within a string at any time.

Example: A DMC3 basic String

XXX- A standard 3 hit combo

What makes DMC3's free-forming engine FAR DEEPER than NGB's is the ability to turn a basic String into a complex Chain.

Example with just 2 Stand Alone Flexible Strikes: (Although DMC3 has a MASSIVE amount of Stand Alone Strikes. I'm only going to need 2 of them to prove how dynamic DMC3's free form engine truly is)

-High Time (Back+X) (Hold X for Chaser)
-Stinger (Toward+X) (Rapid press X for Million Stab)

These 2 Strikes can be substituted within the XXX String at any time, thus turning it into a Chain.

X-Stinger-Million Stab
High Time-Stinger
X-High Time-X
High Time-X-X-High Time-X-X-Stinger
X-X-High Time
X-X-Stinger
X-High Time-Stinger
High Time-X-Stinger
X-X-High Time (Chaser)-X
X-Stinger-Million Stab-High Time-XXX
X-Stinger-Million Stab-High Time-XX-High Time (Chaser)- X
X-X-Stinger-Million Stab-Stinger
X-X-High Time-X-X-Stinger-Million Stab-High Time-X-X-Stinger-Million Stab-High Time(Chaser)-land- Stinger

I could go on and on with so many different variations with just these Strikes and the basic XXX String. Hell, I can even show you how much more flexibility the game allows the player if I added in the Guns into the combos. The point is Flexible Strikes that can be substituted in on the fly to manipulate a String and turn it into a complex Chain is true free forming my friend.

That was just an example of what 2 Strikes can do. DMC3 gives the player a plethora amount of Strikes per weapon. Each Strike with each weapon is equally as flexible as the other. Not to mention the flexibility the Guns allow the player as well. Now, add in the fact that you can switch between weapons on the fly and the combo possiblites are literally endless. This is free forming at it's finest. By giving the player complete control over their combo's the game allows you and even encourages you to get as creative as possible. The way the "Style" system works only helps prove this.

You can even form a complex Chain with just the Flexibles Strikes themselves. You don't even need a String to use as a base. Every single Strike in DMC3 and every single Strike within DMC3's Strings are all extremely flexible and can be substituted in on the fly. No pausing is needed, it's all one constant flow. The mark of a true free form combo.

Ninja Gaiden fails at free forming because there are ZERO Flexible Strikes that can be substituted within a String at anytime. In order to "free form" in Ninja Gaiden you have to through a Strikes ARF's. The very animation you praise is also the denying factor for true free forming.

Example:

Two Stand Alone Strikes for Ninja Gaiden.

TDS/DS:

-Windmill Slash (Toward+X)
-Azure Dragon (Toward+Y)

Now, a basic TDS/DS String.

XXX- A basic 3 hit combo.

I can't manipulate this String with my Stand Alone Strikes because neither the String or the Strikes are flexible. The Strings in NGB are all Dial Up combo. The game does not allow the player to create a Chain.

X-Windmill Slash-X will not come out in a constant flow.
XX-Windmill Slash will not come out in a constant flow.
X-Windmill Slash-Azure Dragon will not come out in a constant flow.
XX-Azure Dragon will not come out in a constant flow.
Windmill Slash-X-Azure Dragon will not come out in a constant flow.

Windmill Slash-Azure Dragon will come out in a constant flow.
Windmill Slash-XX will come out in a constant flow but it's not the combo I want to perform.

Anyways, you see the point. Hardly any flexibility at all.

NGB has too much of a focus on Strings. The game does not allow the player to manipulate a String in any way they want and turn it into a Chain. The lack of Flexible Strikes only helps prove this. The Stand Alone Strikes you do have are far from flexible because you can NOT substitute them into a String at anytime you want in a constant flow. Thus, NGB fails when it comes to true free forming.


Yes you can, and then they would become three separate single strikes. You aren't replacing anything, just making something new out of single strikes. There is no flexibilty or anything in that, just simple chaining.

And yes, you can manipulate the strings however you want. When coded, strings are given parameters for every single hit separately and within a stance. So you can cut starters down out of every move, and chain them together to get even more free-forming capabilities then the whole of DMC3. (Remeber VF)

Also, i remember very well showing to you that strings have the capability to have up to 300X more free-form possibilities if the number of strings is equal to your number of single hits. But don't we know that NG has FAR more moves then DMC3? Yes we do.

Costume strings eclipse chains by sooooo much both in-depth and in sheer amount of free-form capabilities. Why do you think all the major 3D fighters ditched chains?

Shadowcuz wrote:
Ninja Of Chaos wrote:

Told ya Strings were the future of combat engines after Team NINJA showed the world how well a free-form engine could be done with them. Cool

DMC3's engine is way more flexible than NG's engine Wink


laff
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