ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in   

5 weeks, NGS2 haven't even sold 300K, lame
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Ninja Fortress Forum Index -> Ninja Gaiden ∑ Sigma 2
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
CoolBlackKnight
Greater Ninja
Greater Ninja


Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 164
Location: Ishtaros' Bed(She's kinky with that whip)


PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Female Tengu wrote:


If you want an epic game, than God of War is a better choice IMO. NG1 was never made for being "epic" (lol?)


And in MNM Alma in NG1 can "one hit kill" you as well. Same with the red ninjas in chapter one. I see no difference between the two games. And these guys grabbed you all the time, too.


It's easier to handle a single enemy with lots of health than getting spammed by hundreds of ninjas OFFSCREEN. It's always a hard but fair fight in Sigma 2.

And no, if you can handle these spaming situations in NG2 then its more or less pure luck and spamming the same attack again and again which absoluteley not defines the "combat" system in Ninja Gaiden. If a kunai lands right next to Ruy's feet and you try to block this, it always ends with a guardbreaker and losing health...and there is nothing you can do about it because it's random how the enemies aim for Ryu. Even during dashs these things can stick on him. BS.

The projectile spam was the biggest nonsense Itagaki and his team ever created for a NG game ("heh, NG1 wasn't hard enough, let's make it even harder") and there is no way to defend this. Itagakis "Alpha" in DOA4 was very hard BUT well designed and with a certain tactic you can defeat her with no problems (not rushing and mashing buttons. Me facing Alpha, no Problems: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7dp-LjsR6w). But for NG2 Itagaki was totally blinded.
Hayashi did the same with the Ultimate Ninja Missions now but at least the normal game experience is ten times better than NG2s.


And yes, I played trough Master Ninja in NG2 and every other NG as well. Itagaki destroyed the fun of higher difficults in NG2. And a game should always be fun and challenging. NG2 was just frustrating. That's my opinion as a hardcore NG player and as a fan.



If I wanted STORY, yes, GoW is it...

Game-wise uh, no... I'll stick with this or the DMC series(and looking forward to playing Bayonetta).

But yes, going up against those ninja numbers on the stairs(I have a 120HDD elite with the game installed, so slowdown was not as bad as streaming off the disc) felt epic, IMO. So did CH 11(NG 2 360), & many other scenarios, but you get my point.

Everyone handles the IS "spam" by timing/moving and I-frames, plus Ryu has MORE than enough techniques to deal with ANYTHING the game throws his way, Itagaki himself stated- your Ryu's skill, defense and strength level comes from the player's ability to take advantage of these techniques. So for me when I learned how to exploit like I did with the original game, the IS ninjas were the funnest enemies(for me) to battle in NG 2(360)

I've watched friends play that are less skilled than you or I... Itagaki was so on point.

If you wanted a slower, "defensive" styled gameplay like NG 1, yes- you hate the "speed & offensive nature", or in other words, the "to the point" nature of NG 2.

Mind you, I'm not saying Itagaki's vision was polished or perfect, far from it(he was being screwed out of money by TECMO and had a deadline to release as fast as possible, remember- TN NEVER before rushed their games before- that **** would effect you too with your ability to focus and properly play-test)

But I AM saying(to me), Hayashi's vision is weak & barren, less visceral / brutal(but colorful), forced again to play characters I don't want to play and "cheap" in a different way... But hey! No IS spam. Rolling Eyes Hayashi wanted to bring it back to the "three at a time" formula of NGO, but the combat now feels "tedious" and slower to me with the "extra health" giving to the enemies, not "overwhelming" fast like before. So the last gen "feel" was exactly that- LAST GEN.

...They never should have exposed me to the speed / numbers this gen with the original NG 2's 360's release... as I'm use to that speed now... Just sayin'.

...A difference of play/preference amongst us gamers tis all.


Yes, NG 1 DID have cheap parts... Which is why listening to some whine about NG2's "cheap parts" tickle me also. Hell, hard games will always have someone screaming "teh cheap!1!" instead of sucking it up and overcoming it I guess.

Two different games & mindsets, so I hate to compare this gen to last gen.



Bottom line:

I can find fault in both, and I agree with most of your Talking Points, but(for me) the game feels more "fun and challenging"(an you're right, more RANDOM too) in Itagaki's version... But I can deal with it's flaws and challenge personally.

If you like Hayashi's version better, more power to you...As I'm not trying to "change your mind"- and I'm not about to waste time arguing who's version is best, because it's pointless, and I can enjoy(and can find flaws) in both versions.


My opinion.


.....
_________________
"I see you deny your brain its purpose... it yearns to think, but you hold it back."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Neders
Common Ninja
Common Ninja


Joined: 08 Oct 2009
Posts: 69

Gamertag: PSN: Neders

PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Primeval_Demon wrote:
I wouldn't really see Hayashi v.s Itagaki, I would see different takes on the games and thats why the results are different. True Hayashi hasn't proved himself but people will see in time he is a good designer in his own right. He doesn't just copy Itagaki's boss decisions and stuff like that.


I am not saying it is or that it should be Itagaki vs. Hayashi, I just think that when both of them worked on a game, say NGS1 (Itagaki started, Hayashi perfected) it worked out. Also I think that Hayashi has proved himself to some extent, but with NG3 we will REALLY see what he is capable of.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
neoryu
Greater Ninja
Greater Ninja


Joined: 18 Jun 2008
Posts: 107



PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Primeval_Demon wrote:
@ Neoryu

Well I did say it was my opinion. I agree with the removing of stuff though. Its pretty obvious "definitive" was PR talk to build on the hype.

Yes NG2 does have more enemies and perhaps feels like faster action (depends on your opinion). But what has Itagaki done to it to get it like that? Strolling through a cave and I jumped out my seat when a crazy Worm jumps out and it needs no explanation.

And the two Armadillos, oh god not the two armadillos. I can now beat these painfully easily, along with Gigadeath the worm and many other cheap cads in that game. But its not the point. Itagaki, since Alpha 152, you have begun to get this idea that making the odds as against the player as possible makes the game appealing. NOT REALLY! You just get sick of it to a point.

This is why I think Hayashi's games are more fun. Don't care about the amount of enemies. Don't care about how 'epic' the feeling can possibly get. What I want is the fair challenge that the game should have. Sigma achieved this better than 2.

True, Hayashi himself has done this, but not with so many different ways. I admit the games are nothing like last gen, but honestly, imo Sigma, dragon sword and sigma 2 have been the more fun of the games. From my point of view Hayashi does seem to care more about the gameplay than Itagaki does. I am waiting to see Itagaki's first game since walking off. I am hoping that this break from Tecmo takes all the games back to their roots.

Both are guilty of cheap tricks, but from my own personal view Hayashi seems to care less about how fast you can kill the player or frustrate them.


So you're basically telling me that something I like about these games is something you dislike. I can accept that. I personally think that toning down the challenge level and the toughness of the odds that we face in NG is neutering the experience, but others may feel that sort of thing makes a game more fun. I, for one, had no problems with that crazy worm's aggressiveness. Laughing I thought DOA4's Alpha-152 was cheaply designed, but I learned to accept that I would either get my ass kicked by her perpetually or learn her weaknesses and deal out some ownage of my own. This process has happened with other games in my past, like SNK fighters, some Capcom classic arcade games, and many pre-PS1 era games over the years.

I like an old school challenge and that experience is what keeps me playing TN's games. Toning down the challenge level to where the gameplay becomes less intense or the opposition becomes less threatening is not as fun for me. But I understand how a person may want to sit back and casually press some buttons for a change. Other games exist for the times when I want that kind of experience. TN's games are the only ones that exist nowadays with a higher level of ability and challenge coming from the opposition. I expect that this will not be true in the future due to much of the complaining.

I hope Itagaki's new team still goes for that kind of old school philosophy that caters to hardcore games like myself, because that's how most of us NG fans propped the series up for so long. With fighting and action games being so niche today, there is no reason to abandon the hardcore approach. Casuals are just not going to abandon God of War. Fighting games need scantily clad T&A and StarWars characters just to get decent sales nowadays. Rolling Eyes

On the challenge subject, I don't necessarily agree that one hit grabs and certain projectiles is more fair. NGS2 MN jumps the shark with that halfass tactic. MN in NGS2 is artificially difficult and it feels that way a lot moreso than NG2. As for NGB and NG2 (Itagaki's games), I don't think that fighting tough, almost insurmountable odds is in any way less fun. In fact, it actually falls in line with why I've loved this series since the Arcade and NES games. This issue is why I'm such a Ryu Hayabusa fanboy. NGS2 definitely hurt his image for me a bit due to how toned down the challenge from the opposition is, but it's only a game series that exists for my entertainment so it's not that serious.

It comes down to personal preference. Wink The same goes for what is considered cheap and what isn't. It won't be the same for 100% of the people in every case.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Primeval_Demon
Superior Ninja
Superior Ninja


Joined: 01 Sep 2009
Posts: 783



PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMO the only problem I have is the one grab and your dead. I'm not really offended by how much damage enemies do on the difficulty.

I am never getting rid of this game. For me it is currently the closest thing to a fun sequel that exists.

But don't count Hayashi out just yet. He said NGS2 is a learning expirience for him as well. He listens to us fans. If we actually mention we want the fair challenge the original had, no shuriken spam or one grab, then NG3 will be just fine. If we actually say what we want for the higher difficulties NG3 could turn around.

I am also aware sometimes the original played around sometimes. MN will always be hard to some extent and I think it will never be truely perfect. But if we just say we don't like the one grab then they could easily add something to replace it. Down with cheap tricks!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
neoryu
Greater Ninja
Greater Ninja


Joined: 18 Jun 2008
Posts: 107



PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just think that no matter what, when making an action game that's truly hardcore and challenging as opposed to just a casual button masher, there comes a time when somebody in charge has to make some tough decisions. People complained about NG2 even on it's easy difficulties, people are complaining about 1 hit grabs and projectiles in NGS2's MN, but people forget that 3-D NG's hardcore reputation came into existence with the first game for the Xbox. What people fail to mention is that so many people complained about that game too, but the times had changed a quite a bit since it was released compared to when NG2 came out.

In my opinion, putting respawing zombie archers over gaps in NG1/NGB's Chapter 6 was an insanely annoying tactic (they had insane aim, even better than the NG2 archers on MN). VH and MN Alma 2 in NGB is the toughest boss in the 3-D NG series imo. When I really think about it, I don't see why she was given a pass by all the people who call NG2's bosses cheap, but hey I digress. I question whether or not the majority of people who found NG2 unfair were able to finish MN on NGB. NGB suddenly became the most fair game ever made when NG2 came out, and that was before anyone had even beaten MN on it to make a comparison.

My point is, there is no glory to be had by returning to last gen standards with this series. They should take the template they have for NG2's current gen gameplay and work off of that instead of scaling back the improvements it brought so much. NG1 and all it's remakes were not perfect games above criticism. I was happy with almost every change NG2 brought to the table. The only thing that could have polished off the approach they took would have been for them to have had more time in bug testing the final product (though NGS2 still inexplicably has most of NG2's bugs Rolling Eyes ). MS obviously wanted a set release date for NG2 and Itagaki was leaving Tecmo due to unpaid wages, but I seriously doubt TN just threw NG2 together. Look at what Itagaki said about the game in retrospect:

"I look at Ninja Gaiden 2 and it's the culmination of everything I've done, but also a chance for me to kind of reboot how I think about game design. So I feel like there's so much appeal and so many elements that are a part of this, and I am really proud of how it turned out. And I'm actually really excited - I mean, I sit down and play my own game and I'm like wow, this is turned out really well. I think this is the best and most fun game I've ever done. I almost feel like I was born again, like this was the first game I've ever made - that's how fresh this experience is. We were able to include everything we wanted, so there would be little reason to go and do a three or a four, except just to keep the franchise alive. So I feel like I'm ready to move on with different plans."

http://archive.videogamesdaily.com/features/itagaki_iv_jun08_p2.asp

For a guy who wasn't being paid, he sure did feel good about his work enough to speak highly of it after he had just left the company that wronged him. I truly believe his team put some heart and soul into NG2. If it was as horrible of a game as people described over this past year and a half, then I seriously doubt Hayashi would have even set out to port it to PS3 in the first place. People who struggled with NG2's Warrior difficulty and could not have any fun as a result should naturally feel more comfortable with a more laid back action game akin to NG1 from last gen. The good thing for me is I can actually appreciate both styles. I can accept and enjoy both for what they are.

I wonder how NG1 would be universally regarded if it were released during the era when there was no widespread access to the internet or Youtube. That's always interesting to think about.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Takehaniyasubiko
Rogue Ninja
Rogue Ninja


Joined: 27 May 2008
Posts: 411



PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If it was as horrible of a game as people described over this past year and a half, then I seriously doubt Hayashi would have even set out to port it to PS3 in the first place.

Sadly, it is. Ryu is fun as always to play as (minus the lack of ukemi...) and OT was a good idea but the rest is just weak at best.

You've written a nice post but just to the point where you're quoting Itagaki. What he said back then is something I partially hate him for becasue it's plain nonsense and it's even an autonegetion to a certain degree becasue earlier he said there are many things they couldn't implement despite wanting them badly.

I will say it straight - Itagaki was bullshitting about NG2 for a long time becasue for a long he knew that would be his last TN game. He was just acting, making a good face in a sad theater play. That quote you've posted is clearly a "I'm quitting this crap, please don't hate me!" kind of a talk.

Also, Hayashi went for NGS2 just for the money. It's clear because the game has no soul, there's no feeling of appreciation for the fans that you can see in many other games (they didn't even bother to implement some basic PS3 featues...).


Last edited by Takehaniyasubiko on Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Vueguy
Greater Ninja
Greater Ninja


Joined: 30 Mar 2009
Posts: 210
Location: USA
Gamertag: XBL: Vuezero PSN: Vueguy

PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i still have hope NG3 will be a great game as every NG games, but i do know that its gonna have some cheat crap enemies and bosses just like NGS2.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Vueguy
Greater Ninja
Greater Ninja


Joined: 30 Mar 2009
Posts: 210
Location: USA
Gamertag: XBL: Vuezero PSN: Vueguy

PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its finally sold 300K in the 6th week.
I bet it will sell less than NGS.

NGS2 would have sold over million copies by now if it has all of theses.

-blood/gore like NG2
-don't remove weapons like IS and WS
-shouldn't cheat w/ the 1 grab game over
-make MN & UN missions stages bigger
-Ultimate Ninja a real mode for storymode
-give the female characters some extra weapons
-make the online lagless (DBRB is 60fps as well, and we never have like 2% lag online at all, NGS2 have 95% lagfest)
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Female Tengu
Superior Ninja
Superior Ninja


Joined: 22 Jul 2009
Posts: 687
Location: Germany
Gamertag: GalaxySpider PSN: GalaxySpider

PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I may correct you: 370k (it's a "little" difference).

All things you mentioned are actually things YOU want Wink



Main Problem was that TN released Sigma 2 game during the releases of many other good/most wanted games, like COD MW2 etc.

Same happened with Borderlands. It's actually a very cool game with a nice 4 play coop. I dont know why the developers/publishers always choose the 4th quater in the year for selling their games.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
neoryu
Greater Ninja
Greater Ninja


Joined: 18 Jun 2008
Posts: 107



PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Female Tengu wrote:
If I may correct you: 370k (it's a "little" difference).

All things you mentioned are actually things YOU want Wink



Main Problem was that TN released Sigma 2 game during the releases of many other good/most wanted games, like COD MW2 etc.

Same happened with Borderlands. It's actually a very cool game with a nice 4 play coop. I dont know why the developers/publishers always choose the 4th quater in the year for selling their games.


They've shipped 370k copies of NGS2 worldwide. Most of those copies are in NA; the game has been dead since weeks ago in Japan. That means a lot of copies are still on the shelf at NA retailers and online shops. At least they got their money from the retailers, but I highly doubt there will be any more shipments exceeding 150k coming from KoeiTecmo Holdings. Lifetime, I'd say this will ship no more than 400 to 450k tops.

That means NGS2 will likely sell even less than NGS1 overall, which is kind of a shame considering all those changes they made to get more sales. I too agree that releasing during the holiday period was not the best idea. Some of the other changes made to the game did not help either. I personally don't get why so many more people would rather play FPS over a game like this, but I respect the different tastes that gamers have nowadays.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
neoryu
Greater Ninja
Greater Ninja


Joined: 18 Jun 2008
Posts: 107



PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vueguy wrote:
Its finally sold 300K in the 6th week.
I bet it will sell less than NGS.

NGS2 would have sold over million copies by now if it has all of theses.

-blood/gore like NG2
-don't remove weapons like IS and WS
-shouldn't cheat w/ the 1 grab game over
-make MN & UN missions stages bigger
-Ultimate Ninja a real mode for storymode
-give the female characters some extra weapons
-make the online lagless (DBRB is 60fps as well, and we never have like 2% lag online at all, NGS2 have 95% lagfest)


While I agree with some of the changes you listed here, I wouldn't trust VGchartz data if I were you (assuming you got your numbers from them). They are not that reliable either way. This gives us a better idea of where the game stands financially:

http://www.koeitecmo.co.jp/php/pdf/ird1_20091109.pdf

They've shipped 370K worldwide, which means unless there's a massive increase in demand at some point, they aren't going to sell much more than that over the game's full run at retail. In actuality, there could possibly be more than 300K in consumers' hands, or there could be less than 300k in consumers' hands.

I'd wager there are slightly less than 300k copies actually sold to consumers right now. But with impending discounts and clearance sales, they will move the complete 370K shipment at some point for sure.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Female Tengu
Superior Ninja
Superior Ninja


Joined: 22 Jul 2009
Posts: 687
Location: Germany
Gamertag: GalaxySpider PSN: GalaxySpider

PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

neoryu wrote:


I personally don't get why so many more people would rather play FPS over a game like this, but I respect the different tastes that gamers have nowadays.



Hm, I think the reason is that FPS are not really hard to understand (a genre for "everyone"). You just aim and pull the trigger Laughing
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
neoryu
Greater Ninja
Greater Ninja


Joined: 18 Jun 2008
Posts: 107



PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Female Tengu wrote:



Hm, I think the reason is that FPS are not really hard to understand (a genre for "everyone"). You just aim and pull the trigger Laughing


Ah, well there we have it. I think you're definitely on to something. Smile

I also find it interesting that the FPS genre is loathed in Japan. Being in the minority, I happen to share their sentiments.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Takehaniyasubiko
Rogue Ninja
Rogue Ninja


Joined: 27 May 2008
Posts: 411



PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FPS games are just boring for me. Also, I don't like First Person Perspective because I want to watch the whole model of my character. But, of course, not many share my sentiments in this regard nowadays.

Anyway, the sales of NGS2 had to be small. It's a niche franchise nowadays and Hayashi is only making things worse with his stupid design choices. The main problem with the sales is that most NG fans are on Xbox platform for obvious reasons. There was that whole talk about Playstation gamers hooking on NG but that's bullshit. NG has it fans and they are playing it, not the new guys (there are newcomers, of course, but that's a very small minority). The first Sigma sold better because it was the beginning of PS3 and there was a small amount of interesting games so some PS3 fans bought NGS1 because it was the only alternative to pathetic Genji 2, lol.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Primeval_Demon
Superior Ninja
Superior Ninja


Joined: 01 Sep 2009
Posts: 783



PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just think its the wrong time of year for Tecmo to launch it.

I have noticed from my own views TN games don't sell nearly as well this time of year (close to christmas) compared to other times of the year like Summer. Too many companies releasing too many things. Bayonetta, Assasins creed 2 etc might all be potential competitors for it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Ninja Fortress Forum Index -> Ninja Gaiden ∑ Sigma 2 All times are GMT - 7 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 3 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group