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sabotage
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sanman wrote:
XNinjaRed wrote:
I don't think UTs in general are very useful in Karma runs anymore, now that OTs give 10000 points...
And the Tonfas UT kills more enemies then the Claw's UT.
That and the claws dismembers much easier, so the Tonfas are more for getting more hits.
I would say that alone is enough to distinguish the Tonfas from the Claws.


Hold the phone.


If sabo is saying counter attack to OT is 13k, wouldn't a UT to an OT gain a net 15? And sabo, thats only if you get an instant kill from the counter. If harder difficulties don't produce consitant decaps, thats not a very safe route.

So I'm thinking, starting with ET's and UT's leading into massive amounts of OT's might be the way to go, if there is a ET/UT that a)doesn't kill off the enemy (or is relatively weak) and dismembers in some way and b) dismembered enemies don't die on their own any time soon and c) it is possible to more easily and quickly charge a ET/UT, then wouldn't that be the way to maximize karma?

Of course, I'm assuming there is not a time constraint, and I'm thinking of higher difficulties (for some reason thats the only level i think on for karma). Plus, I don't really know much about these weapons ET/UT situation, because I have only casually watched the footage.

And then, if you have multiple dismembered enemies, and do, say, three strait OT's on enemies which were just dismembered by that ET/UT, there should be a killing spree karma bonus, which just piles on the points.

Is that not a viable karma opportunity?

Plus, you can still drag essence.


Dunno. In vids I've seen it looks impossible to link an OT after a UT or ET. Once the essence leaves the enemies body they're considered dead. From what I've seen, the essence leaves the enemies body while Ryu is still performing the UT or while Ryu is recovering from doing a UT, so after the UT is done there isn't a chance to farm additional points.

In NG/NGB, UT's are pretty much always fatal even on the highest difficulty. Even certain ET's are close to being fatal to enemies on the highest difficulty. So I'm not sure if linking an OT after an ET/UT could be a viable Karma tactic. It might be on the hardest difficulty but I don't think it'll work on lower difficulties.

XNinjaRed wrote:
But I'm pretty sure waiting to counterattack wouldn't be such a good idea, especially if there is a time limit. I mean, I tried to wait for the MSAT fiends to do a normal attack for me so I can counterattack for my combo vids, yet I end up dodging grabs much more then be able to counterattack.


Meh, Counters aren't the only attacks that cause a dismemberment. If I noticed an enemy being throw happy or passive then I'd just bust them with a quick dismembering combo and link into an OT.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sabotage wrote:
sanman wrote:
XNinjaRed wrote:
I don't think UTs in general are very useful in Karma runs anymore, now that OTs give 10000 points...
And the Tonfas UT kills more enemies then the Claw's UT.
That and the claws dismembers much easier, so the Tonfas are more for getting more hits.
I would say that alone is enough to distinguish the Tonfas from the Claws.


Hold the phone.


If sabo is saying counter attack to OT is 13k, wouldn't a UT to an OT gain a net 15? And sabo, thats only if you get an instant kill from the counter. If harder difficulties don't produce consitant decaps, thats not a very safe route.

So I'm thinking, starting with ET's and UT's leading into massive amounts of OT's might be the way to go, if there is a ET/UT that a)doesn't kill off the enemy (or is relatively weak) and dismembers in some way and b) dismembered enemies don't die on their own any time soon and c) it is possible to more easily and quickly charge a ET/UT, then wouldn't that be the way to maximize karma?

Of course, I'm assuming there is not a time constraint, and I'm thinking of higher difficulties (for some reason thats the only level i think on for karma). Plus, I don't really know much about these weapons ET/UT situation, because I have only casually watched the footage.

And then, if you have multiple dismembered enemies, and do, say, three strait OT's on enemies which were just dismembered by that ET/UT, there should be a killing spree karma bonus, which just piles on the points.

Is that not a viable karma opportunity?

Plus, you can still drag essence.


Dunno. In vids I've seen it looks impossible to link an OT after a UT or ET. Once the essence leaves the enemies body they're considered dead. From what I've seen, the essence leaves the enemies body while Ryu is still performing the UT or while Ryu is recovering from doing a UT, so after the UT is done there isn't a chance to farm additional points.

In NG/NGB, UT's are pretty much always fatal even on the highest difficulty. Even certain ET's are close to being fatal to enemies on the highest difficulty. So I'm not sure if linking an OT after an ET/UT could be a viable Karma tactic. It might be on the hardest difficulty but I don't think it'll work on lower difficulties.

XNinjaRed wrote:
But I'm pretty sure waiting to counterattack wouldn't be such a good idea, especially if there is a time limit. I mean, I tried to wait for the MSAT fiends to do a normal attack for me so I can counterattack for my combo vids, yet I end up dodging grabs much more then be able to counterattack.


Meh, Counters aren't the only attacks that cause a dismemberment. If I noticed an enemy being throw happy or passive then I'd just bust them with a quick dismembering combo and link into an OT.

Well you see, that's the point.
At least now you'd do more then just do Onlanding UTs all the time.
Now you do different things to dismember an enemy and do an OT.
OT spamming is at least a bit more fun to look at then UT spamming.
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sabotage
Shadow Ninja
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

XNinjaRed wrote:
sabotage wrote:
sanman wrote:
XNinjaRed wrote:
I don't think UTs in general are very useful in Karma runs anymore, now that OTs give 10000 points...
And the Tonfas UT kills more enemies then the Claw's UT.
That and the claws dismembers much easier, so the Tonfas are more for getting more hits.
I would say that alone is enough to distinguish the Tonfas from the Claws.


Hold the phone.


If sabo is saying counter attack to OT is 13k, wouldn't a UT to an OT gain a net 15? And sabo, thats only if you get an instant kill from the counter. If harder difficulties don't produce consitant decaps, thats not a very safe route.

So I'm thinking, starting with ET's and UT's leading into massive amounts of OT's might be the way to go, if there is a ET/UT that a)doesn't kill off the enemy (or is relatively weak) and dismembers in some way and b) dismembered enemies don't die on their own any time soon and c) it is possible to more easily and quickly charge a ET/UT, then wouldn't that be the way to maximize karma?

Of course, I'm assuming there is not a time constraint, and I'm thinking of higher difficulties (for some reason thats the only level i think on for karma). Plus, I don't really know much about these weapons ET/UT situation, because I have only casually watched the footage.

And then, if you have multiple dismembered enemies, and do, say, three strait OT's on enemies which were just dismembered by that ET/UT, there should be a killing spree karma bonus, which just piles on the points.

Is that not a viable karma opportunity?

Plus, you can still drag essence.


Dunno. In vids I've seen it looks impossible to link an OT after a UT or ET. Once the essence leaves the enemies body they're considered dead. From what I've seen, the essence leaves the enemies body while Ryu is still performing the UT or while Ryu is recovering from doing a UT, so after the UT is done there isn't a chance to farm additional points.

In NG/NGB, UT's are pretty much always fatal even on the highest difficulty. Even certain ET's are close to being fatal to enemies on the highest difficulty. So I'm not sure if linking an OT after an ET/UT could be a viable Karma tactic. It might be on the hardest difficulty but I don't think it'll work on lower difficulties.

XNinjaRed wrote:
But I'm pretty sure waiting to counterattack wouldn't be such a good idea, especially if there is a time limit. I mean, I tried to wait for the MSAT fiends to do a normal attack for me so I can counterattack for my combo vids, yet I end up dodging grabs much more then be able to counterattack.


Meh, Counters aren't the only attacks that cause a dismemberment. If I noticed an enemy being throw happy or passive then I'd just bust them with a quick dismembering combo and link into an OT.

Well you see, that's the point.
At least now you'd do more then just do Onlanding UTs all the time.
Now you do different things to dismember an enemy and do an OT.
OT spamming is at least a bit more fun to look at then UT spamming.


I hate UT spamming as much as the next guy but even I'll admit it's not as simple as just doing "OL UT's all the time". There is a strategy involved with it.

How's OT spamming going to be any different from UT spamming when it's discovered that you can dismember an enemy (no matter the difficulty) with one simple combo? If this happens then all KR's are going to consist of this simple combo>OT. That really wouldn't be so much different and that really wouldn't be much fun to look at...

Don't think for a second that this couldn't happen either. It is a high possibility.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sabotage wrote:
I hate UT spamming as much as the next guy but even I'll admit it's not as simple as just doing "OL UT's all the time". There is a strategy involved with it.

How's OT spamming going to be any different from UT spamming when it's discovered that you can dismember an enemy (no matter the difficulty) with one simple combo? If this happens then all KR's are going to consist of this simple combo>OT. That really wouldn't be so much different and that really wouldn't be much fun to look at...

Don't think for a second that this couldn't happen either. It is a high possibility.
Sure there's probably allot more to it then just onlanding UTs, like dragging Essence and finding safespots (and allot more ofcourse).
But really, anything that has a scoreboard will EVENTUALLY end up being a spamfest of a certain attack, no matter what.
I mean, DMC4's scoreboard has nearly become a tauntspamfest!
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

XNinjaRed wrote:
sabotage wrote:
I hate UT spamming as much as the next guy but even I'll admit it's not as simple as just doing "OL UT's all the time". There is a strategy involved with it.

How's OT spamming going to be any different from UT spamming when it's discovered that you can dismember an enemy (no matter the difficulty) with one simple combo? If this happens then all KR's are going to consist of this simple combo>OT. That really wouldn't be so much different and that really wouldn't be much fun to look at...

Don't think for a second that this couldn't happen either. It is a high possibility.
Sure there's probably allot more to it then just onlanding UTs, like dragging Essence and finding safespots (and allot more ofcourse).
But really, anything that has a scoreboard will EVENTUALLY end up being a spamfest of a certain attack, no matter what.
I mean, DMC4's scoreboard has nearly become a tauntspamfest!


The 360 version is glitched. Leaderboard that is. Some British guy got 48 million total on DH or Human, dunno which.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sabotage wrote:
sanman wrote:
XNinjaRed wrote:
I don't think UTs in general are very useful in Karma runs anymore, now that OTs give 10000 points...
And the Tonfas UT kills more enemies then the Claw's UT.
That and the claws dismembers much easier, so the Tonfas are more for getting more hits.
I would say that alone is enough to distinguish the Tonfas from the Claws.


Hold the phone.


If sabo is saying counter attack to OT is 13k, wouldn't a UT to an OT gain a net 15? And sabo, thats only if you get an instant kill from the counter. If harder difficulties don't produce consitant decaps, thats not a very safe route.

So I'm thinking, starting with ET's and UT's leading into massive amounts of OT's might be the way to go, if there is a ET/UT that a)doesn't kill off the enemy (or is relatively weak) and dismembers in some way and b) dismembered enemies don't die on their own any time soon and c) it is possible to more easily and quickly charge a ET/UT, then wouldn't that be the way to maximize karma?

Of course, I'm assuming there is not a time constraint, and I'm thinking of higher difficulties (for some reason thats the only level i think on for karma). Plus, I don't really know much about these weapons ET/UT situation, because I have only casually watched the footage.

And then, if you have multiple dismembered enemies, and do, say, three strait OT's on enemies which were just dismembered by that ET/UT, there should be a killing spree karma bonus, which just piles on the points.

Is that not a viable karma opportunity?

Plus, you can still drag essence.


Dunno. In vids I've seen it looks impossible to link an OT after a UT or ET. Once the essence leaves the enemies body they're considered dead. From what I've seen, the essence leaves the enemies body while Ryu is still performing the UT or while Ryu is recovering from doing a UT, so after the UT is done there isn't a chance to farm additional points.

In NG/NGB, UT's are pretty much always fatal even on the highest difficulty. Even certain ET's are close to being fatal to enemies on the highest difficulty. So I'm not sure if linking an OT after an ET/UT could be a viable Karma tactic. It might be on the hardest difficulty but I don't think it'll work on lower difficulties.

XNinjaRed wrote:
But I'm pretty sure waiting to counterattack wouldn't be such a good idea, especially if there is a time limit. I mean, I tried to wait for the MSAT fiends to do a normal attack for me so I can counterattack for my combo vids, yet I end up dodging grabs much more then be able to counterattack.


Meh, Counters aren't the only attacks that cause a dismemberment. If I noticed an enemy being throw happy or passive then I'd just bust them with a quick dismembering combo and link into an OT.


I didn't mean to go straight from UT to OT, like a you would with a combo. But, perhaps certain UT's or ET's would cater well to this idea. DS ET? On master ninja, that isn't an automatic death half the time, and maybe on path of the master ninja (or whatever it is) it won't be either. Then you can account larger fiends. Take giant purple ones. I think of them as I do Ogers. Except for 5% UF,SotHD (maybe) and DDB, a UT on master ninja won't kill one of these bad boys from full health. So, we could assume that at some point in a UT barrage they would probably loose a limb. Then, just run up and OT them after its done with.

Plus, what about the sythe UT. It is just a one hitter. If that doesn't kill, and if it dismembers, the same concept could work.


I'm assuming that once an enemy is dismembered, they live on, and you can at any time go up to them, press Y, and OT them.

And just a thought. Wind Sythe Ninpo, its pretty much made to dismember, so would that be a spam tech for karma, pop one off, then OT the entire group of ninja's?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sabotage wrote:
I hate UT spamming as much as the next guy but even I'll admit it's not as simple as just doing "OL UT's all the time". There is a strategy involved with it.

How's OT spamming going to be any different from UT spamming when it's discovered that you can dismember an enemy (no matter the difficulty) with one simple combo? If this happens then all KR's are going to consist of this simple combo>OT. That really wouldn't be so much different and that really wouldn't be much fun to look at...

Don't think for a second that this couldn't happen either. It is a high possibility.


OT spamming could be a bit more random though. Remember that Itagaki said that certain moves have a certain chance of removing a limb. So nothing is guarenteed (unless they change it).

The enemies we've seen so far look easy to fight. They don't move around as much compared to the cats and slider fiends. But assuming that they mix up enemies (i.e. slider fiends with cats). The cats you could counter but not the slider fiends (in NGB anyway). I know a lot of people will be using the X counter of the Dragon Sword to chop of legs. But having a mix of different enemies would not make it as repetitive.

All the enemies do look easy so far. Hopefully there will be a lot more harder ones to fight.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sanman wrote:
I didn't mean to go straight from UT to OT, like a you would with a combo. But, perhaps certain UT's or ET's would cater well to this idea. DS ET? On master ninja, that isn't an automatic death half the time, and maybe on path of the master ninja (or whatever it is) it won't be either. Then you can account larger fiends. Take giant purple ones. I think of them as I do Ogers. Except for 5% UF,SotHD (maybe) and DDB, a UT on master ninja won't kill one of these bad boys from full health. So, we could assume that at some point in a UT barrage they would probably loose a limb. Then, just run up and OT them after its done with.

Plus, what about the sythe UT. It is just a one hitter. If that doesn't kill, and if it dismembers, the same concept could work.


I'm assuming that once an enemy is dismembered, they live on, and you can at any time go up to them, press Y, and OT them.

And just a thought. Wind Sythe Ninpo, its pretty much made to dismember, so would that be a spam tech for karma, pop one off, then OT the entire group of ninja's?


-Yea, that's why I said the tactic could probably work on the highest difficulty. I don't think it'd be usable on lower difficulties though. It might be but I'm not really counting on it.

-The Scythe's UT looks pretty tough actually. It's sort of like the return of the Dabi ET, except with a slightly longer range. In videos it just rips right through people. The move does have a long recovery though.

-That's an interesting question. I forgot about the Wind Ninpo. The move seems to decap and even rip people completely to peices, I guess it could be safe to assume it won't do that on the highest difficulty though.

Keylay wrote:
OT spamming could be a bit more random though. Remember that Itagaki said that certain moves have a certain chance of removing a limb. So nothing is guarenteed (unless they change it).

The enemies we've seen so far look easy to fight. They don't move around as much compared to the cats and slider fiends. But assuming that they mix up enemies (i.e. slider fiends with cats). The cats you could counter but not the slider fiends (in NGB anyway). I know a lot of people will be using the X counter of the Dragon Sword to chop of legs. But having a mix of different enemies would not make it as repetitive.

All the enemies do look easy so far. Hopefully there will be a lot more harder ones to fight.


-You bring up an excellent point. A point that could actually cause most players to AVOID OT spamming. When you add in a random factor the outcome is no longer guaranteed, therefore it's not dependable. When you throw a time limit into the mix (assuming there'll be time limits in NGII) then that's going to cause a sense of urgency. A sense of urgency that could cause the player to go with the "sure thing" (ET/UT) other than the "gamble" (OT).

-You have to keep in mind that the enemies are on easy mode in most gameplay videos, so a lot of the advanced AI stuff isn't available to them.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some people say that the time limits for encounters are removed. It does make sense actually. Think about it: you run from a group, and the follow you. Now, unlike NGB, they DON'T disappear when you leave the area the spawned in. When you get into the next encounter, they are still there. It would mess up the time limit IMO. Yeah, they could forfeit the time for one encounter, but still add the enemies that are on your ass to the encounter you run into, thus killing them all and still not get the time.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You kind of contradicted yourself. First you were saying that time encounters weren't going to be in the game, then you acknowledged that time encounters could be in the game. Laughing

I have thought about it and I see that as Itagaki- being the evil person he is- is actually penalizing the player for running away. Think about it: Ryu is a killing maching. If you're in his way then you're going to die. Running away from battle is the complete opposite of what Ryu is all about. So Itagaki implements this 'chasing AI' to punish the player.
-If you run away you lose the time encounter bonus for that encounter
-Now in the next encounter you have even more enemies to deal with so chances are you're not going to get the time encounter bonus for that encounter either
-The more you run away, the more enemies you're adding to the next encounter

It's a system that's encouraging the player to NOT run away and instead hold their ground.

Also, I seriously doubt Itagaki would remove time limits from NGII. Time Limits is what gave the first game infinite replayability. There's no way Itagaki would just remove that for no reason. That'd just piss off a lot of players (myself included).
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never cared much for the time encounters, but if they do have it, I hope it works like it dos in Mission mode. So instead of having to kill everyone in a time limit, you just get more points for doing it faster. I hated it when someone died but you had to wait for their death animation to finish for the time encounter to stop.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ryu_Hayabusa wrote:
Some people say that the time limits for encounters are removed. It does make sense actually. Think about it: you run from a group, and the follow you. Now, unlike NGB, they DON'T disappear when you leave the area the spawned in. When you get into the next encounter, they are still there. It would mess up the time limit IMO. Yeah, they could forfeit the time for one encounter, but still add the enemies that are on your ass to the encounter you run into, thus killing them all and still not get the time.
That could be a bvtch, for example your all like damn I barely made it out then BOOM out of no were like ten ninjas you ran past go medivil......
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sabotage wrote:
You kind of contradicted yourself. First you were saying that time encounters weren't going to be in the game, then you acknowledged that time encounters could be in the game. Laughing

I have thought about it and I see that as Itagaki- being the evil person he is- is actually penalizing the player for running away. Think about it: Ryu is a killing maching. If you're in his way then you're going to die. Running away from battle is the complete opposite of what Ryu is all about. So Itagaki implements this 'chasing AI' to punish the player.
-If you run away you lose the time encounter bonus for that encounter
-Now in the next encounter you have even more enemies to deal with so chances are you're not going to get the time encounter bonus for that encounter either
-The more you run away, the more enemies you're adding to the next encounter

It's a system that's encouraging the player to NOT run away and instead hold their ground.

Also, I seriously doubt Itagaki would remove time limits from NGII. Time Limits is what gave the first game infinite replayability. There's no way Itagaki would just remove that for no reason. That'd just piss off a lot of players (myself included).


I was giving an example to what would happen if they were in the game. Valid points though Wink
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keylay wrote:
I never cared much for the time encounters, but if they do have it, I hope it works like it dos in Mission mode. So instead of having to kill everyone in a time limit, you just get more points for doing it faster. I hated it when someone died but you had to wait for their death animation to finish for the time encounter to stop.

I wouldn't like that at all. Mission Mode's time limit is retarded. It's the main reason why I never bothered to play for score in MM.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sabotage wrote:
Keylay wrote:
I never cared much for the time encounters, but if they do have it, I hope it works like it dos in Mission mode. So instead of having to kill everyone in a time limit, you just get more points for doing it faster. I hated it when someone died but you had to wait for their death animation to finish for the time encounter to stop.

I wouldn't like that at all. Mission Mode's time limit is retarded. It's the main reason why I never bothered to play for score in MM.


Don't say bad things about the Holy Mission Mode
I prefer missing my karma goal in 30 differents missions than missing it 30 times at the exact same point in SM, less repetitive Razz
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