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Transcended
Superior Ninja
Superior Ninja


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 536



PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dances w Ninjas wrote:
Keep that to yourself. He's the only reason that there are still morals in this society.


whatever, Im a good person because I wanna be, not because I believe in Divine Retribution, or any religion, your just fanning the flames here DwN, my post is probably gonna get them roaring, and its gonna be the whole "christians trrying to convert peole to there religon thing" that has happened on any forum I've been on where people start saying things like this, let me save you converters some time I've tried religion, and I didnt like it, so dont bother trying to get me back on it again! Protest
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Dances w Ninjas
Hayabusa Ninja
Hayabusa Ninja


Joined: 18 Sep 2005
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Gamertag: Dances w Ninjas
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not necessarily a Christian but calling thier lord a pedophile is flaimbait on their part.
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Transcended
Superior Ninja
Superior Ninja


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes it is, but thats not what my point was, you said basically, hes the only reason people in this world is good, bull**** ive seen more good people in a group of non-religous goths, then in a church, religous people are often over-zealous, over-opinionated, and overly concerned with other people, and if your not religous, they threaten you with hell, and keep pushing to convert you, its been that way ever since I left my church, Im not good because Im afraid of hell, i dont believe in heaven or hell, all I believe in making the most of right now, and I find the best way for me to do that, is to be kind to others, and lend a helping hand
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Dances w Ninjas
Hayabusa Ninja
Hayabusa Ninja


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Religion really was the reason that morals existed in the first place. I mean way back when, what was there to stop you from killing somebody? You say the law but to some people that's not a big deal but the threat of an angry God that could doom you to an eternity in a very painful place could get even the most heartless person to change their ways. That is, of course, until science came along. As more religious 'facts' were disproved, the amount of followers dwindled. And today, you see more and more people without religious faith. And guess what else you see more of?
-A lack of empathy
-A lack of kindness
-A lack of manners
-Violence
-Pre-marital sex(Which you say "That's only bad in religion" but think about it. When people have sex with more than one person, STDs are put into existance. Obviously the person that wrote the Bible knew a thing or two about the negative effects of sleeping with more than one person)
-Drug and alcohol use
And then once we find out what happens after death, religion will die, sadly, and so will any morals that are left.

There is a book that you should read. It's called Fahrenheit 451. It is a 'warning' of the future that depicts a society without books(religious or otherwise). As you read, you see how heartless and uncaring everybody is. It's a real eye-opener as to how this world is spiraling downward.
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Transcended
Superior Ninja
Superior Ninja


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

your preaching DwN, i told you, I warned you in my last post, this is a thin line your treading on, next thing you know, more and more people are gonna get caught up in it, and its going to get bigger and bigger, and Ive already read Farenheit 451, as for that list, I guess me, and my whole, rather large family are an exception to that rule? if people raise their children the correct way, then our society wouldnt be so screwed up, we should continue this argument elsewhere, like in e-mail or something so others cant escelate it further
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Dances w Ninjas
Hayabusa Ninja
Hayabusa Ninja


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you really think that a family that enforces morals is going to keep society as a whole from becoming a hellish jerkhole? As each generation passes, they will become less and less connected to the morals due to the strong influence of the outside world. Eventually, they'll just become another part of the heartless society of the future. You say that it's the parent's fault for not raising their children right and I have to agree with you. The problem is that the screwed up kid's influence is going to rub off on other kids. And it will slowly deteriate that family with each generation.
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Head Ninja
Head Ninja


Joined: 04 Sep 2005
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Location: Glasgow, Scotland


PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ninjilla wrote:
I am Jesus incarnate....


That makes no theological sense unless you take Paradise Lost/Regained to be the main text of Christianity. Jesus was an incarnation, according to a majority churches; he was the physical form of God.

Could someone please tell me how the hell (ha ha) this topic went from a Final Fantasy movie to religious debate?!
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Dances w Ninjas
Hayabusa Ninja
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Gamertag: Dances w Ninjas
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's kinda like this:
FFVII:AC>KH>Off Topic>Ninjilla claiming to be Christ>Mini's picture>My rant about thier insulting of the picture>Trancended's rant about me.
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Transcended
Superior Ninja
Superior Ninja


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

are you happy? weve crossed the line, and now,
do you really believe that "religon" is going to hold back the malice in the hearts of those that would harm others? and do you think my family is alone in the world? there are others, do you really want to continue this argument? were both at stalemates and the arguments are just going to get worse, this topic isnt about my family, its about whether good morales can exist without the fear of punishment! and they can! this was never about society, you turned it into an argument of society to use to your own end, I have had plenty of negative influences in my life, and I still stand by my morales, its not about "enforcing" morales, its about instilling a strong belief in morales, enforcing will never work, without my morales, I woundnt be me, itd be the same as losing my personality, or a physical body part, you seem to think im ignorant of what the world would be like without morales, and you seem to be ignorant that the most important thing that determines morales, is ones upbringing, if religon helps with that, so be it, but just look at all the religous people, who still seem to have children that grow up without morale, even though religon is supposed to be a tool to help with morale, people out there ruin it, and they'll be the cause of the bleak future you fortell, people who preach too hard about religon, and drive others away from it, parents who push their children, the zealots, in order for religon to work, it has to be a free choice, not one inspired by fear or reward either, because that isn't really someone doing good because of their morales, now is it? Still you'll find some argument back against me, and I'll argue back, and it will keep going on, until Keylay closes this topic, so, lets end this now, by agreeing to disagree, agreed?
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Transcended
Superior Ninja
Superior Ninja


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 536



PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dances w Ninjas wrote:
It's kinda like this:
FFVII:AC>KH>Off Topic>Ninjilla claiming to be Christ>Mini's picture>My rant about morales >Trancended's rant about my rant about morales.


your off there buddy, there fixed it for you, you seemed to have thought that my protest was directed at you, it wasnt, it was at your statement.
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Ninjilla
Divine Ninja
Divine Ninja


Joined: 23 Oct 2005
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Location: San Antonio, TX

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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man, peaple are so touchy. Yes, religious was important a long time ago, but some have used Religion and it's power over peaople for ill affects. Peaople attacked Darwin for thinking differently, it's all BS.
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Transcended
Superior Ninja
Superior Ninja


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 536



PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

people wanna follow religon, fine, just dont think it inspires morales, because it doesnt
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Ninjilla
Divine Ninja
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dont care if ppl are religious as long as they dont push it off on me. I see religion like this; Use it as something to help carry you through life, but dont let it be your basis of life.
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Head Ninja
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Joined: 04 Sep 2005
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Location: Glasgow, Scotland


PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bear you no grudge, Transcended, but I love debates.

Transcended wrote:
are you happy?


Not really, no.

Transcended wrote:
do you really believe that "religon" is going to hold back the malice in the hearts of those that would harm others?


No, but laws imposed by society based on a combination of the Ten Commandments and Thomas Hobbes' Leviathan make a pretty good attempt at it.

Transcended wrote:
and do you think my family is alone in the world?


I don't know your family but if they rant like you do, very possibly.

Transcended wrote:
there are others, do you really want to continue this argument?


Yes.

Transcended wrote:
were both at stalemates and the arguments are just going to get worse, this topic isnt about my family, its about whether good morales can exist without the fear of punishment! and they can!


No, they can't. Read Leviatan. Even if you haven't read Hobbes, you should realise by now that laws are created as a set of punishments for breaking barriers set by society, ergo people only obey the law out of fear of being punished. If you had the option of being nice, friendly, patient and sharing everything, or killing or pushing aside everyone who stood in your way and knowing for a fact there would be no post-death or karmaic consequences for your actions, then which would be the easier for you?

Transcended wrote:
this was never about society, you turned it into an argument of society to use to your own end,


The only reason Society exists is because of laws and traditions that were created by religious bodies. Why do you think the high street is really crowded around Dec. 25th? Why do you think that most people get Sunday off of work? Why are birthdays important to you? All of these are based on religious traditions. So since society is a product of religion, and also a source of "new" religion, it is therefore part of this debate.

Transcended wrote:
I have had plenty of negative influences in my life, and I still stand by my morals, its not about "enforcing" morals, its about instilling a strong belief in morals, enforcing will never work, without my morals, I woundnt be me, itd be the same as losing my personality, or a physical body part.


Carrot and the Stick. You can grow to love the carrot, but you begin by fearing the stick. Therefore, which is easier to implement? See: operant conditioning. By the way, why are you now talking about morals in society when this debate was "never about society"?

Transcended wrote:
you seem to think im ignorant of what the world would be like without morales,


"Morals" are a set of codes and comparisons by which human beings judge what is "good" or "bad". "Morale" is a sense of ego that we have whereby we feel that we are accomplishing stuff.

Transcended wrote:
and you seem to be ignorant that the most important thing that determines morales, is ones upbringing, if religon helps with that, so be it, but just look at all the religous people, who still seem to have children that grow up without morale, even though religon is supposed to be a tool to help with morale


Yes, a tool, not a panacea. Besides which, since when has anyone ever fully conformed with authority's wishes when they were growing up?

Transcended wrote:
people out there ruin it, and they'll be the cause of the bleak future you fortell


True.

Transcended wrote:
people who preach too hard about religon, and drive others away from it, parents who push their children, the zealots, in order for religon to work, it has to be a free choice, not one inspired by fear or reward either, because that isn't really someone doing good because of their morales, now is it?


It is virtually impossible to have a free choice without fear or reward. Choice is something that is made between two or more paths, and is usually decided by which leads to the best circumstance by push and pull factors. Since fear pushes you away from some choices and reward pulls you towards others, it is therefore impossible to make a choice without considering fear and reward. Furthermore, the freedom of when to make the choice is often not given either: do you want to get a job now or later? You have no money; what do you think?

Watch the Architect's scene in Matrix Reloaded, or compare it to the Merovingian's theory of causality in the same movie.
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Transcended
Superior Ninja
Superior Ninja


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thank you ninjilla, see I dont care if someones religous, I've tried it, I dont like it, other peole want to, thats fine by me, the thing that started all this was belief that religon inspires morale when it doesnt, believe it or not, its all in your upraising, however some people failed to see the point, I forgive them for getting sidetracked (jk DwN, really, Im done) but I've had plenty of time to develop a deep resentment for religon througha series of things, and have been in enough religous arguments to pick up enough to keep me going in an argument forever, but Im really sick of it, and I dont wanna be in another one, buts its funny how if one person says there a good person, and doesnt believe in god, the figurative gates of hell bust open Wink
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