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Yo Sabo... (On topic Wiz/Key)

 
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Megla Zero
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 9:47 pm    Post subject: Yo Sabo... (On topic Wiz/Key) Reply with quote

I've been doing a lotta thinking about everything that you said/posted about Halo 2... while playing Halo again and Halo 2. Then, I was just looking in the "Game Demos" section of Halo.... (newer version I have) and they have the Halo 2 X02 Announcement, and E3 2003 Trailer... both of which are about the destruction of Earth and needing to save teh world and everything.

When I was playing through Halo 2, I was just happy for it to be out... and (like a lot of people) I didn't really notice the whole "lack of destruction" thing, but since then I've been thinking about it and I'm starting to agree with you. In the X02 Announcement... they show the whole world (couldn't find a pic for anyone else, sorry) as a giant black/red orb, basically showing that the whole thing was being burned/destroyed. However, as you (and anyone else that played H2) will notice... theres like... minimal destruction going on, and they covered it up with "a scout party was sent to Earth, because they thought it was another Reach". After this huge hype up to the full scale invasion of Earth we end up getting miffed with a stupid scout party going to investigate.

Jason Jones wrote:

I don't know if we're crazy, or stupid, or what... but we just like good stories in an action game. - Taken from 'The Making of Halo 2' on my Halo disk.


Yeah... if you want a great story.... then why did you just screw us over with this crappy story? I really don't get it...

Anyway, if you watch the E3 Demo.... then you will see that they had originally planned for the BR and SMG... along with Dual Weilding. The BR being a single shot gun, although toned down from the pistol (hopefully) to make it like 5-6 shot kills, would have been basically what they were shooting for (judging from the demo). Also, as soon as he picks up the SMG, or the equivalent of the SMG, he automatically gets two of them, and he can put both of them away without dropping one. This could've been implemented somehow... either if you have both of the same weapon (ie 2 SMGs, 2 Magnums, 2 PRs) so it would be more fair, although tough if you were trying to take out a power weapon user, since they could have dual SMGs coming at you right away. They also should have probably just taken the Plasma Pistol out of the (multiplayer) game entirely. It creates such an unfair advantage, either when people noob combo (PP shot switch to BR) or just use it in dual weilding (PP shot then 1-2 magnum kill), and especially with all of the "Team Slayer BR" games in Team Hardcore and Team Slayer, where everyone spawns with a BR but there are other weapons on the map. That basically becomes a noob combo match, with the team that doesn't noob either losing or barely scraping out a win.

Overall, I actually wish they had waited longer... and actually banged out a decent game, instead of making more of a Halo 1.5 (which is basically what they did) which really doesn't fulfill their whole story line. Hopefully, they will have enough time and motivation to fulfill all their goals for the game, and actually create a DECENT, BALANCED GAME... unlike Halo 2, which despite its Pros, the Cons seriously outweigh it.

Pros of Halo 2:

  • Jacking of vehicles, to allow more on foot combat
  • No "touch, you're dead" vehicle physics, also allowing more foot combat vs. vehicles
  • Nice design of Dual Weilding, although horribly unbalanced
  • Gauss Warthog added more variety, but made Chaingun obsolete
  • New addition of Spectre, although it isn't used in any Matchmaking
  • Nice way of balancing Ghost and Banshee's boost and shoot to prevent too much whoring
  • Vehicles explode, to prevent flag games from being once sided once they get a 'Hog somewhere
  • Promotes teamwork to take down enemies


Cons of Halo 2:

  • Vehicles are too heavy (T-Bone a 'Hog in Halo and Halo 2 and you'll see what I mean)
  • Dual weilding is too unbalanced... creates an unfair advantage versus a newly spawned person
  • Heavy weapons dominate the map, due to a lack of a balanced starting weapon
  • Makes it tough to survive by yourself, which is usually how you will spawn in a game.
  • Covie/Human weapons aren't always balanced (BR/Carbine, no FRG in MP)


Ok, so theres probably some more things... but my brain went on strike.

Basically... I almost completely agree with you sabo, except for the vehicles. I just wish the vehicles in Halo 2 kept the same vehicle to vehicle collision physics, where they actually move and flip, instead of flipping every so often if you get lucky.

(BTW Yes I am a vehicle whore.... but who care Razz)
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The vehicles in Halo 2 couldn't have the same collison effects like in Halo CE. Mostly due to the Havok engine messing everything up. God.. I hate Havok. The only thing it's good for is ragdolls. Other than that it's just terrible. Havok even messed up the Melee damage done in Halo 2. Cheap trick you can do, slide your thumb across A to B. The game will register the jump but your Melee will kick in before you leave the ground. Problem is, with the Havok engine it doesn't register this correctly and your Melee will end up doing double damage. There's all kinds of exploits like this you can use to get cheap kills. Ugh... I hate Halo 2. Laughing
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Megla Zero
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm... I've never thought of that before. I'll try it next time I play to piss off my friends Very Happy

Anyway, I still like Halo 2.... because its one of the only really decent online run n gun shooters for xbox... (or at least the only one that I have) but it still kinda pisses me off now.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll stick to my Halo CE LAN's. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hoo boy. I don't know why I'm going to do this. I mean, it's an uphill battle as is, and it's not like I'm going to convince you guys of anything. But someone's gotta do it, so here's why I still think Halo 2 is equal too (and in some ways better than) Halo:CE.

Having recently replayed the campagin mode of the original Halo, here are some things that I noticed were improved in Halo 2.
-Graphics. This one is obvious. I know that graphics don't make the game, but they help. Elite's sheilds look way better in Halo 2 IMO. Oh, and vehicals show visible signs of combat.

-Vehicals. The vehicals in Halo 2 give you many more options. The ability to boost with the Banshee and Ghost is sadly lacking in Halo 1. The E-brake for the warthog makes the warthog much easier to manuver. Plus, in Halo 2 the warthog has a horn. The horn is cool.

-AI. The AI in Halo 2 is far superior to that of the original Halo. Elites are much smarter. Grunts are smarter. Marines are WAY smarter. Hell, even the infection forms of the flood are smarter. In Halo 2, they can come at you from the walls, or drop from the ceiling. The AI improvements in Halo 2 are very obvious.

-Variety. In the original Halo, I found that during the campagin, there was little incentive to try/use different weapons. The pistol was a viable option against any enemy. The assult rifle had ammo refills so often that the plasma rifle was barely touched. Even the sniper rifle wasn't all that useful, since the pistol has a 2X zoom anyway, and kills most enemies in a few shots.

-Physics. In Halo 2, everything has mass. Master Chief can interact with his environment and move things around. Not possible in the original Halo. This allows MC to create barricades, tear down barricades, jump to greater hights, and so on. Going back to the original game, it seems downright silly that MC can beat space aliens to death, but he can't move a single box.

-Misc. First off, grenades. In Halo 2, they have a smaller blast radius. While some may argue that this is bad, it allows grenades to be a viable option in more situations. It also rewards having good accuracy.

The last feature that Halo 2 has that the original game lacks is the 'anytime zoom'. In Halo 2, you can use a 2X zoom at anytime, even if your current weapon does not have a scope. This is an increadibly useful tool in both single player and multiplayer, as it allows you to scout out the area ahead, and keep an eye on far away enemies.

I think that both of these games are great. Halo has a much better story, and more memorable levels. Halo 2 has vastly improved graphics and AI. Also, in Halo two, in almost every situation there is a weapon suited to that situation. There is an incentive to try out new weapons, and to think about what weapons you want to take into battle.

I know that people are going to complain about the multiplayer in Halo 2. I know that there are improvements that can and should be made. But in my experiance, most of the problems that have previously been pointed out are not as bad as people make them out to be. Halo 2 multiplayer can still be fun. So can mulitplayer in the original game. Halo 2 is not perfect. But neither is any game.

Well, that's all my opinion. Feel free to agree or disagree with me as you wish. Thanks for reading.
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Megla Zero
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well... I agree that the computer and everything was vastly improved in Halo 2.... but I was more or less complaining that Bungie fvck up royally with the storyline that they had originally planned for Halo 2. Plus, they also managed to fvck up teh balance between the weapons. Like I said above, if they had made the BR single shot (like the pistol in Halo CE, which I already said was WAY too overpowered for a pistol) but made it take 5-7 shots to take down a guy instead of 3... it would have been a decent starting rifle, and allowed you to have some semblance of a chance against the power weapons out there.

I agree with you on the vehicles in Halo 2... they are a lot more variable, but they also create some unfair advantages.... plus the rockets can be kinda unfair with the lock-on. I think they should've just kept the Banshee out, and let people attempt to shoot down the ghosts/hogs/spectres with the regular rockets.... it would have given vehicles a much better chance against rocket whores, and actually made using the rockets have some sort of skill (like in Halo CE). I just wish they had been able to keep the same fun/strange/whacky Halo CE vehicle physics for them, because me and my friends have been doing "Warthog Derby" style games, where you just drive around and try to kill each other by driving into each other. It really starts to show off the crappy vehicle collissions, when you both drive into each other full speed... and youll either just go thud, lose your shield, and then keep going.... or you'll both do like a double or triple flip and then hopefully land and keep going.

About the Physics... you actually could move some stuff in the original Halo (I believe...) but you could definitely move the vehicles. There are some good/bad things about both games... and I wish they had just kept the good things about Halo CE and increased the bad things about it for Halo 2. It may have turned out to be a much better game that way.

BTW, me and Sabo are basically talking about multiplayer more than single player... so yeah.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I know that you're mostly discussing multiplayer, but I had to defend Halo 2 somehow.

As for Multiplayer in Halo 2 being a cheap noobfest: I think that we can agree to disagree. I still say vehicals are way better though.

Oh, one thing that Halo 2 multiplayer has going for it: Interactive environments. You can't (well, I don't think you can) deny that Zanzibar is pretty cool since you can change the level during gameplay. And Relic has that teleporter that totally changes your strategy.

So overall, I love both Halo and Halo 2, for different reasons.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ookami wrote:
Hoo boy. I don't know why I'm going to do this. I mean, it's an uphill battle as is, and it's not like I'm going to convince you guys of anything. But someone's gotta do it, so here's why I still think Halo 2 is equal too (and in some ways better than) Halo:CE.

Having recently replayed the campagin mode of the original Halo, here are some things that I noticed were improved in Halo 2.

-Graphics. This one is obvious. I know that graphics don't make the game, but they help. Elite's sheilds look way better in Halo 2 IMO. Oh, and vehicals show visible signs of combat.


A game can have the best graphics in the world but if the gameplay sucks it doesn't matter how pretty the game is. But let's roll with this. Halo 2's graphics aren't as great as people make them out to be. The XBOX has so much trouble generating everything onscreen. It's so bad I can see the 4 different bump map layers they used on EVERY SINGLE object. This includes guns, rocks, walls, vehicles, enemies, EVERYTHING. Everything has different bump mapping layers you can notice if you pay attention. This is VERY DISTRACTING to me. Not to mention the terrible draw distance in Halo 2. With Halo CE, you could look ahead for MILES. An object will look the same far away as it does close up. The environments in Halo CE FAR SURPASS Halo 2's. Go to a snow level in Halo 2 and watch the snow fall, you can see the pattern. Now, go to Halo CE and watch the snow fall. BIG DIFFERENCE. This is just a small example to show you the attention to detail Halo CE has over Halo 2. Inspect both games carefully and you'll see the difference BIG TIME. Only thing graphically Halo 2 has on Halo CE is Character Models. But again, if you watch closely you can see the different bump mapping layers the closer you get to the object. Distracting as hell.... Don't even get me started on Halo 2's cutscenes.... The only object in the game that isn't affected is the Spartan model. And that's only because it was made with normal mapping technology.


Quote:
-Vehicals. The vehicals in Halo 2 give you many more options. The ability to boost with the Banshee and Ghost is sadly lacking in Halo 1. The E-brake for the warthog makes the warthog much easier to manuver. Plus, in Halo 2 the warthog has a horn. The horn is cool.


Yes, these are nice additions. Too bad the handling on all of them suck. Blame the physics for this one.

Quote:
-AI. The AI in Halo 2 is far superior to that of the original Halo. Elites are much smarter. Grunts are smarter. Marines are WAY smarter. Hell, even the infection forms of the flood are smarter. In Halo 2, they can come at you from the walls, or drop from the ceiling. The AI improvements in Halo 2 are very obvious.


Having beaten both games on Legendary modes, I can firmly say the AI in Halo CE is better than the AI in Halo 2 in some situations. In others Halo 2 is better. Mostly with the marines though. Also, the AI on Halo 2's Legendary is just plain BS. The AI isn't smarter, the enemies are just tougher and MC is helluva' lot weaker. Add in the fact the AI has 100% accuracy. Halo 2's Legendary wasn't fun. The game turned into trial-and-error. This isn't smart AI in my opinion. Halo CE on the other hand was brilliant fun. It was a constant game of cat and mouse and it was never stale. The AI on Halo CE's Legendary mode was genious.

Quote:
-Variety. In the original Halo, I found that during the campagin, there was little incentive to try/use different weapons. The pistol was a viable option against any enemy. The assult rifle had ammo refills so often that the plasma rifle was barely touched. Even the sniper rifle wasn't all that useful, since the pistol has a 2X zoom anyway, and kills most enemies in a few shots.


LOL.... You can get away with this on Halo CE Normal perhaps, but on harder settings you better know which weapon to use and where. On Legendary mode I found myself CONSTANTLY changing weapons. The Pistol was just a good all around weapon, but their are definately better tools to use in different situations. If you rely on the Pistol you're only making things harder for yourself.

As for Halo 2... Plasma Pistol/Battle Rifle with the occasional Sniper.... This is for all settings... doesn't matter.

Quote:
-Physics. In Halo 2, everything has mass. Master Chief can interact with his environment and move things around. Not possible in the original Halo. This allows MC to create barricades, tear down barricades, jump to greater hights, and so on. Going back to the original game, it seems downright silly that MC can beat space aliens to death, but he can't move a single box.


The physics in Halo CE are FAR superior than the Havok engine. Throw a grenade under a Warthog and watch that bvtch take flight. Just because you can't move stuff around you automatically think Halo 2 has superior physics? You wouldn't believe the interactivity a grenade can cause in Halo CE. You have no idea how bad the Havok engine has messed up the Halo formula. Need an example, throw a grenade at a 45 angle. Now, according to physics throwing something at this angle should give you maximum distance. Not in Halo 2...


Quote:
-Misc. First off, grenades. In Halo 2, they have a smaller blast radius. While some may argue that this is bad, it allows grenades to be a viable option in more situations. It also rewards having good accuracy.


I don't mind the smaller blast radius but the timer is just lame. The grenades have now become the perfect 'spam' alternative. Thanks to the physics the grenades will take a random bounce when they hit the ground. Even stickie grenades are 'spammers' now with their insanely short detonation time. I couldn't tell you how many times I've stickied a guy coming around a corner only to have it kill us both thanks to the short timer...

Halo CE's grenades may have been a little too powerful, but they have so many uses. You ever naded weapons closer to you for easy retrieval? Used a grenade's explosion to cause a weapon to blast off so your opponent couldn't get his hands on it? Placed a perfect grenade right under a player driving a vehicle causing him to launch off into the air in a spiral of doom? These are just SOME of the grenades uses. And take note how the physics in Halo CE are used in these situations as well. VASTLY SUPERIOR THAN HALO 2.

Quote:
The last feature that Halo 2 has that the original game lacks is the 'anytime zoom'. In Halo 2, you can use a 2X zoom at anytime, even if your current weapon does not have a scope. This is an increadibly useful tool in both single player and multiplayer, as it allows you to scout out the area ahead, and keep an eye on far away enemies.


Yes, this was a nice 'feature'. Seriously though... I rarely used it.


Quote:
I think that both of these games are great. Halo has a much better story, and more memorable levels. Halo 2 has vastly improved graphics and AI. Also, in Halo two, in almost every situation there is a weapon suited to that situation. There is an incentive to try out new weapons, and to think about what weapons you want to take into battle.


There is huh.. funny. For every weapon to be useful in a situation there would have to be Weapon Balance in Halo 2... which there isn't. I got by with BR/PP and the occasional sniping. Against the Flood I'd pull out the Sword... other than that I didn't touch the other weapons. Reason being, there was no reason to. They lack balance and depth. Halo 2 is SHALLOW in this department.

Halo CE has GENIOUSLY balanced weapons. EVERY GUN is useful in almost every situation. It just relied on the players skill level to figure out the weapons depth. Halo 2's weapons on the other hand have ZERO flexibility. They are so confined to their environment there is none of this experimentation that you speak of. The weapon is either good or bad in any situation. The only experimenting that exists is figuring out when to use the gun. There is no "I wonder if I can also use this gun in this situation' because the weapon scale in Halo 2 is so bland. This only further hurts Halo 2's multiplayer. The whole Halo 2 online formula revolves around controlling the power weapons. This is not fun, this is boring. Every map plays out the same no matter who you're playing with. Power Weapons should be a tool for the player to use, not a requirement.


Quote:
I know that people are going to complain about the multiplayer in Halo 2. I know that there are improvements that can and should be made. But in my experiance, most of the problems that have previously been pointed out are not as bad as people make them out to be. Halo 2 multiplayer can still be fun. So can mulitplayer in the original game. Halo 2 is not perfect. But neither is any game.


After you've put 4 YEARS into Halo CE's multiplayer, then you can tell me Halo 2's multiplayer isn't 'that bad'. Your damn right it's not 'that bad', it FREAKING TERRIBLE!

Quote:
Well, that's all my opinion. Feel free to agree or disagree with me as you wish. Thanks for reading.


I can respect your opinion, but I do not agree with you. It was an entertaining read though.
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Ookami
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, no, I never put four years into Halo:CE. Cause I only got an X-box recently.

But yeah, you made some good points. At this point, I think that all I can say is that I still think both games are fun and leave it at that. Oh, and the Warthog in Halo 2 has a horn. That makes it better:P.

EDIT: Sort of off topic, but we're talking about Halo, so: http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/202039

You'll need flash. Enjoy.
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